Question 2 questions about chucking

Baron

Vegging
1. What is the proper etiquette or protocol when you want to use someone’s gear for chucking ?
2. If you have a hermie that you do see until it’s to late, are the resulting seeds good, will they tend to produce plants that hermie, and finally, does it make any difference if the pollinated plants were grown from feminized seeds ?
 

Dino Party

🔥💩🔥💩🔥💩
When somebody sells genetics, they are letting them go. Once you bought them, they are yours to do with what you please. If they did not want it to get out, they shouldn’t of profited off releasing it.
if somebody gifts seeds, please respect whatever wishes they have for them.
 

GCG

CHOOSE YOUR TITLE
Ive asked breeders permission with the intention of chucking and all were good with it. Good to reach out definelty. Usually get some good insight into the strain in return for being upfront.

I wouldn't use 2 of one breeders strains for fear they may want to do the same.

I know S1's are all over the place but some poeple get pissed at them.

Always give breeder credit when using their gear.

I see lots of F2's of strains people make using others gear. I suppose if they're not for sale its hunky dory. Seems grey to me. Except to be able to personally hunt further. See alot of F2 freebies that arent from original breeder.
 

Amos Otis

In Bloom
1. Always give credit to the maker of any seeds you work with. Period.
2. Never sell f2s, f3s etc of anyone's work unless the maker no longer sells, makes, or has plans to continue making. - example, Bodhi's Goji OG, Honest's Banana Punchsicle - both breeders made public statements "when they're gone they're gone".
3. Don't be an asshole in seed making, or otherwise.
 

Schwaggy P

🇦🇫🦨
Staff member
does chucking two different plants together (neither of which are origanl chucks of yours) really any different than S1'ing, because you're still starting with 1-2 plants that werent your chuck to being with, does it make the end product any more "yours"?
(Comments below are made with the assumption that the scenarios in question are terminal efforts that result in no further action. Therefore, I appeal to anyone who has undertaken such endeavors not to interpret my comments in anyway critical or framed as a pejorative. If you make S1s as part of a larger breeding program these comments could not apply)

I would say there is a clear difference between the scenarios provided. First, what is at issue here isn't whether or not every pre-existing genetic ingredient (parent plants, grandparents, etc.) is the product of your breeding, but whether or not the "chuck" in question is such a product. To shift the arbiter of "yours" to whether you made everything that came before it, is to create scenario where there can be, at best, only one breeder ever. Cannabis wasn't invented from nothing, therefore there would only be the first person who ever found it and selected parents to make the first bred seeds. By your paradigm, anyone who came after this proto-breeder can't be considered a breeder of specific things because they would be using plants, "neither of which are original chucks" of theirs.

The defining arbiter to decide if "the end product [is] any more yours" would be whether or not you bred the end product. The defining quality of breeding is selection. The goal of breeding is to identify plants that act as exemplars of specific desirable traits and to control their mating in such a way as to make offspring manifest these traits through inheritance.

Assuming in your first scenario that you grew and selected the 2 different plants to chuck, then you made selections based on your personal assessment of to what degree your plants best exhibited a set of traits you subjectively deemed desirable. Here, you have taken the initiative to decide what was desirable and made selections with the goal of producing progeny that exhibited parental traits in such a ratio that they offer something the parents did not. In this scenario, you have engaged in breeding.

Assuming in your second scenario that you started with a well-known clone, then at no point will you have impressed your selection bias on the process when making S1 seeds. You would have received a phenotype that someone other than you selected from a population. This lack of selection on your part would not technically meet the definition of breeding and can therefore be more of a mechanical seed-making endeavor.

(I’ll take a moment to preempt an attempt at sophistry, namely, to say that you “selected” to use that clone. This is to generalize far from the accepted understanding of the selection process from a population and would allow for a slippery slope deteriorating into Hobson’s Choice; whereby my selection not to ever grow is itself a breeding decision.)

While you own title to the seeds of both scenarios, the first is the only product that was the result of your breeding while the second was the consequence of a simple seed-making process. If I remove you from the scenarios, I would never be able to accomplish the first, as I would need you to decide the traits and make the selections. I could produce the exact same seeds without you in the second scenario. It is because your involvement is so instrumental in the first, whereas is not necessary in the second, that you would consider it more “yours” than the S1.

I can conceive of different versions of your scenarios (chuck F1 vs S1): Chucking a female and male that someone else gave you and S1-ing a female that you selected. With these amendments, the roles switch and the S1 is more “yours” than the chuck. Regardless of the possible permutations of scenarios, all I must illustrate is that there is a difference in the scenarios spelled out in your original statement such that you could not make an all-encompassing insinuation that there is no difference between them and that one could not consider either product “anymore yours”. There is a difference based on your role as breeder vs. seed-maker.

What is the difference between f2’ing Dino berry bites and crossing 2 different strains from other breeders (or really anything you didn’t make yourself)? At the end of the day, is A+B THAT much different than A+A?
This was made in response to a situation described where these products would be sold. Your question is making an equivalence between F2-ing a currently available F1 from a different breeder and a cross that you made from different lines of your own selection. While you did made selections from the F1 to make the F2, the problem here isn’t whether or not you can consider the product “yours”, but whether or not it would be a fair representation of the F1 and be marketed as such.

If you were to take Dino Berry Bites F1 and make F2, but sell them as “Dino Berry Bites”, you would be doing Eso a disservice. My point is not one of morality (whether one should sell F2 of a currently available F1 and take market share), but one of genetic inheritance. F1 generations can have very stable trait expressions which, in theory, can be homogenous. Take Mendel’s peas for example:
Screen Shot 2020-09-05 at 4.53.16 PM.png
Here you can see the dominant allele for “smooth” peas (S) will express in all F1 progeny. So the Dino Berry Bites (DBB) F1 could be bred for a similar homogeneity that was intended to express across all phenotypes. If you now take two of the F1 plants to make F2 we now have a different outcome:
Screen Shot 2020-09-05 at 4.53.23 PM.png
Now the permutations give us 25% expression of the recessive “wrinkled” pea (s) in our population.

To market the F2 as F1 would be trying to profit from the prestige and interest in the DBB F1 while adulterating the experience the breeder intended with all sorts of recessive expressions. This is why F2 seeds are generally used to peer into some of the more parental and grandparental traits that lurk in a line.

You could market your seeds as Dino Berry Bites F2 so that you could at least absolve yourself of any deceptive marketing, but then slip back into the moral question of whether it is “right” to sell F2 while the original F1 is still being sold. I think this moral question has been dealt with already so I leave that alone. My intent was to show that there is a difference between F1 and F2 of the same line such that there needs to be a marked distinction.
 

Keif Lint

In Bloom
1. What is the proper etiquette or protocol when you want to use someone’s gear for chucking ?
2. If you have a hermie that you do see until it’s to late, are the resulting seeds good, will they tend to produce plants that hermie, and finally, does it make any difference if the pollinated plants were grown from feminized seeds ?
Hey Baron
1. If you know them/talk to them let them know and ask if they have an issue.
2. It's up to you really it's not ideal but people do
3. I haven't noticed any cons
 
I'm going to toss out another question on top of the question regarding planting a "hermie" seed. I use female seeds and I've yet to have anything beyond a couple of seeds in my handful of grows. I did save them and at some time I will plant them.

Here's the question part ... If you know that the hermie was caused by heat stress for example, wouldn't the resulting seed only be prone towards throwing male flowers under heat stress conditions? - and - If you're better able to control the temps, wouldn't it be just as likely to stay female for the whole grow? I'm asking because I'm not sure ...
 
1. What is the proper etiquette or protocol when you want to use someone’s gear for chucking ?
2. If you have a hermie that you do see until it’s to late, are the resulting seeds good, will they tend to produce plants that hermie, and finally, does it make any difference if the pollinated plants were grown from feminized seeds ?
I am very much a new chucker( <2years ), but my understanding is once you create a new cross, it's yours.
That doesn't mean crossing Breeder A's strain 1 with Breeder A's strain 2, but rather taking genetics from different sources and combining them.

For me, I have made new crosses from PSBC gear, but would never call the result my work. I've crossed strains from different breeders and consider the result mine.
I also have a project where I hope to work a cross I made into a stable IBL. Even though both parents were from the same breeder, once I have a few generations of backcrosses and inbreeding, I will also consider that mine(assuming anything comes of it).

Of course, I have no commercial interests and this is all a hobby. Folks who do this for money may well have a different view.
 

GCG

CHOOSE YOUR TITLE
Hermie seeds can be gems, a bunch of elites were hermie seeds. With that said a hermie seeds are also prone to being just that herms. If original did it with stress or just from genetics more than likely the resulting seeds will carry that shitty trait too. If you have access to other seeds trash them or store them for a rainy day.
 

GCG

CHOOSE YOUR TITLE
Oh and if there were no males around rhe resulting hermie should be famale. Other than the hermie part. I believe. Someone chime in if Im wrong here
 

Saro01

In Bloom
Since I'm not doing this for money, fame or glory, I give all credit back to the breeders of the parents. Hell, I'm just chucking a little pollen.
Then you should be fine. Just do what I do in most situations like this, put yourself in their shoes.... How would you like to be treated, etc. Most times you'll find the best answer that way. Golden rule is golden for a reason. 😊 Good luck with your chuckin!
 

GCG

CHOOSE YOUR TITLE
When somebody sells genetics, they are letting them go. Once you bought them, they are yours to do with what you please. If they did not want it to get out, they shouldn’t of profited off releasing it.
if somebody gifts seeds, please respect whatever wishes they have for them.
Totally get that. I think most breeders get that too. Just feels right to me to attempt to reach out. If for nothing else than the insight they could provide. Also starts a dialog with the breeder no harm there.
 

Dino Party

🔥💩🔥💩🔥💩
Totally get that. I think most breeders get that too. Just feels right to me to attempt to reach out. If for nothing else than the insight they could provide. Also starts a dialog with the breeder no harm there.
I disagree. I wouldn’t want to pester somebody with such a piddley little question. They sold it, you bought it. It’s yours. I felt it went without saying. And, why are you chucking with something that you’d need breeder insight from? Shouldn’t you have a good idea what you’re working with before you start throwing pollen? I know it’s just chucking but still.

edit: I’m not coming at ya, lol. Just putting questions forth
 

Phylex

GK Genetics
Staff member
When somebody sells genetics, they are letting them go. Once you bought them, they are yours to do with what you please. If they did not want it to get out, they shouldn’t of profited off releasing it.
if somebody gifts seeds, please respect whatever wishes they have for them.

I agree and disagree with this.

I agree that when you purchase seeds that are for sale, you can use them. For instance, if you're selling Dino Berry Bites and I buy them, I can use it with something else if I want to create something new. But in doing so, credit should always be given in the lineage. I.e. Snake Bite (Rattlesnake Diesel x Dino Berry Bites)

I disagree that when you purchase seeds you should be able to do whatever you want with them. (morally) For instance, if you're selling Dino Berry Bites, and I buy them, F2 them, and start selling Dino Berry Bites F2's, that's not morally right. Can someone do that? Of course they can. It happens. People can do whatever they want. If you're trying to walk a respectable line should you do that? Absolutely not.
 

Dino Party

🔥💩🔥💩🔥💩
I agree and disagree with this.

I agree that when you purchase seeds that are for sale, you can use them. For instance, if you're selling Dino Berry Bites and I buy them, I can use it with something else if I want to create something new. But in doing so, credit should always be given in the lineage. I.e. Snake Bite (Rattlesnake Diesel x Dino Berry Bites)

I disagree that when you purchase seeds you should be able to do whatever you want with them. (morally) For instance, if you're selling Dino Berry Bites, and I buy them, F2 them, and start selling Dino Berry Bites F2's, that's not morally right. Can someone do that? Of course they can. It happens. People can do whatever they want. If you're trying to walk a respectable line should you do that? Absolutely not.
What is the difference between f2’ing Dino berry bites and crossing 2 different strains from other breeders (or really anything you didn’t make yourself)? At the end of the day, is A+B THAT much different than A+A? If I took Dino berry bites and smashed it with grandpas breath, what difference would that make? I took two works from other people I had no hand In making, and crosses them. Boom, new lineage. If I took Dino berry bites and F2’d it, there are two plants I had no hand In making, that I crossed.

whats the difference?

that said, I agree and only giveaway f2 work. But still, do you see a difference? I’m just asking for opinions, not trying to argue.
 

Phylex

GK Genetics
Staff member
What is the difference between f2’ing Dino berry bites and crossing 2 different strains from other breeders

If someone F2's someone else's work like Dino Berry Bites, they didn't create anything. They're simply playing with someone else's work. And if they decide to sell it, it's flat out shady and a slap in the face of the original creator.

Crossing two different strains from two different breeders is creating a new cultivar and is now something that that individual actually created. It's a big difference and that's how new cultivars are created. If it isn't a landrace, it was created using work by another breeder.

(or really anything you didn’t make yourself)?

New cannabis strains aren't made with magic wands that appear from nothing so I don't understand your above reference of "or really anything you didn't make yourself." If you take two different cultivars from two different breeders and create a new cultivar that hasn't been made before, you created it.

I like to believe most breeders put a lot of time and effort into creating their new cultivars. So their hard work should be respected. That's the difference.

I find it disappointing that you're a breeder yet you're saying there isn't a difference between A+A vs. A+B. Disappointed only for the fact you're a breeder and not someone new to this that's seeking information to do things the respectable way. I can't help but ask myself, 'How is this guy a breeder, yet he or she doesn't understand these differences?'

I'm also going to call bullshit that you don't understand these differences because I know you do. Or else you wouldn't have said, 'that said, I agree and only give away F2 work.' So you clearly understand the difference. There's no need to be politically correct and state you're not trying to argue when you clearly are. Unlike the OP who is genuine in their search for answers, you're a breeder and should already know proper breeding etiquette. So I'm not buying that you don't understand the difference.

I also don't see anything wrong with a customer F2'ing another breeder's work for purposes of seed preservation, creating more personal stock, or gifting those F2 seeds away. Just as long as they're not renaming them to imply it's something new they created. Proper etiquette is broken when things become monetary and the customer tries to sell those F2's for monetary gains off the back of the original creator.
 
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Dino Party

🔥💩🔥💩🔥💩
If someone F2's someone else's work like Dino Berry Bites, they didn't create anything. They're simply playing with someone else's work. And if they decide to sell it, it's flat out shady and a slap in the face of the original creator.

Crossing two different strains from two different breeders is creating a new cultivar and is now something that that individual actually created. It's a big difference and that's how new cultivars are created. If it isn't a landrace, it was created using work by another breeder.



New cannabis strains aren't made with magic wands that appear from nothing so I don't understand your above reference of "or really anything you didn't make yourself." If you take two different cultivars from two different breeders and create a new cultivar that hasn't been made before, you created it.

I like to believe most breeders put a lot of time and effort into creating their new cultivars. So their hard work should be respected. That's the difference.

I find it disappointing that you're a breeder yet you're saying there isn't a difference between A+A vs. A+B. Disappointed only for the fact you're a breeder and not someone new to this that's seeking information to do things the respectable way. I can't help but ask myself, 'How is this guy a breeder, yet he or she doesn't understand these differences?'

I'm also going to call bullshit that you don't understand these differences because I know you do. Or else you wouldn't have said, 'that said, I agree and only give away F2 work.' So you clearly understand the difference. There's no need to be politically correct and state you're not trying to argue when you clearly are. Unlike the OP who is genuine in their search for answers, you're a breeder and should already know proper breeding etiquette. So I'm not buying that you don't understand the difference.

I also don't see anything wrong with a customer F2'ing another breeder's work for purposes of seed preservation, creating more personal stock, or gifting those F2 seeds away. Just as long as they're not renaming them to imply it's something new they created. Proper etiquette is broken when things become monetary and the customer tries to sell those F2's for monetary gains.
Please find and quote a single instance where I call myself a breeder. I’m just asking questions, I don’t necessarily believe what I’m asking.
lol as a matter of fact I have never been referred to as a breeder more in all my life than just now, in your post.
 
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