I'd like to talk about using far red during flowering.

[spyralout]

 

[Photon Pharms]

Yes, I agree that 'bluer' light will shorten internoding.

I was speculating on mimicking the natural biome of the native local.

Reasoning that that ruderalis developed in an environment where blue light is abundant, takes a few hours for the sun to come up. Twilight, at the end of the day, lags on forever.
Conversely equatorial Sativas do the 12 12 thing under non oblique rays. Just wondering if Sativas are 'programmed' to more readily utilize longer photons.
Just spit balling, nothing really to add.

For myself, being curious, I divided my 8 foot room with blu on the right, and red on the left. Haven't been running it that way long enough to say much intelligent about it.

I will offer this.
I believe inadequate intensity leads to stretching. I find the tallest plants are out searching for light.
Curious however to see this little scenario developing.
Question.
Is light intensity or spectrum, more effective at reducing internode space ?

I am so cheap, I actually recycled a doodle !
View attachment 19374
The scene is correct. The units are not.
What we are looking at is accurate to my current crop.

The most intense light is is red, and situated on the left.
The blue light , on the right, is farther away and less intense.
I am seeing longer internode spacing under red light; even under greater intensity.
At the moment, 500 blue is shorter than 700 ppfd of red.

Pontificating,,, one could use even inadequate blu light, for better results, in a confined space.
Furthermore, a tiny source of blu light , in a predominantly red room, would hit above its' class.


Since I am rambling consider this,,,
I have seen photo's of T12 , finishers, UV, and full spectrum tubes mounted flush on high intensity fixtures.
Pre-acknowledging that I just argued this in the opposite direction - still - give your head a shake , man.
An HPS bulb will out hit a tube from three feet away.
Meaning,,, I could mash a plant into a florescent tube and still not achieve the same intensity as an HID sitting 36 inches away.
The most disappointing part of owning an Apogge Quantum sensor, is the realization of how fast light drops off.
I humbly suggest; if you folks are mussing about with these experiments: put it right up in their faces. Much of this fringe stuff is underpowered. Nothing seems to be as advertised. You buy into an idea, and they sell you a toy.

I understand what you are saying now. Interesting. I did this experiment, or very similar with a blue dream stain. I'll try to dig up pics. Very different looking phenols, though I'm not sure pheno is correct here. As the character of each plant was dictated by light spectrum. Now i did not go full blue only vs red only, it was a bit more mellow than that. Back in my blurple days, the bloom/veg switch on the lights I was running was very heavy one way or the other, depending on the switch position. At the end, my harvest weight was comparable. The plants and flowers however turned out extremely different. Well, they were different flower sizes and structures but similar looking as it was the same strain. But about a 2 foot difference in height. Also got a good bit of foxtailing on the red side. This was very very early in my indoor hobby though, so I can't attest to the control of the experiment.

 

[Photon Pharms]

View attachment 19422

Hahahaha! Will do my friend!!! Taping flashlights to the floor!!!!!

 

[DopeDaniel]

I am dropping this here because it covers a topic I believe relavent to this discussion.

Should a Study on Pesticides Affect Our Use of Them? (Published 2020)

Recent research, which found a link between pyrethroids and deaths from heart disease, highlights the limitations of epidemiological research.

www.nytimes.com

Scientific method is dependent on unbiased evaluation. The fact rh as t Dr.Bugbee owns a company that sells lighting instrumention (possibly the best available to general consumers and even researchers) does not necessarily bias the validity of the information he presents but he is also a salesman. I worked with apogee, exatech, and some other measurment instrumentation 20 years ago when a company I was consulting for were replacing high bay hid lighiting with led. In the end we neded to go with human perception as a key guiding factor as the instrumentation always read low. So many other factors were at play like flicker and spread and instant on (people go in and turn on the lights be like holy fuck put the sun away). In the end we basically evaluted each area independently out side light, windows, area usage. If a regulator walks in and perceived the light to be sufficient the likelyhood they would pull a meter out and check was very low. Bugbee has known of these inconsistencies he seemed to recently tout as new information. (2 or 3 years ago iirc was when I saw the vid) I no longer watch his videos after that, it ia unfortunate as he is a smart individual.

 

[DopeDaniel]

Anecdotal evidence here, interpret as you wish.
Wildfires burning on the western slope and now front range of colorado have created long lasting sunrises and sunsets. At times it seems as if there is a 2700K hps lamp in the sky, very orange.

This is honey sundae

She was flowered indoors then revegged and is being reflowered by light dep outdoors. As standard there is much more leaf material, however it seems as if over the flower initiation the node spacing has elongated to a greater extent than when indoor.

 

[Skunky Dunk Farms]

I guess ill toss this in this discussion.
Im on my second round with 6 of the Kingbrite 288 panels. All have red, far red and UV. 2 are unswitched and the other 4 have switches.
Im experimenting now with the reds, i ran them 8 of 10 weeks in flower last grow and was not pleased with the results.
This time i switched reds on 1 week before turning lights back and will leave them on 2 additional weeks in my tent and 4 in the big room.
Why? I dont know. Just to see i suppose.
With that let me explain what i was doing before the LEDs.
I ran HID for years and had come up with a great system that worked pretty darn good and is somewhat along the lines of your question i think. I could consistently pull 10 ozs per plant every time.
I vegged under2 600w MH conversion bulbs for 6 weeks, switch to 2 600w HPS for two weeks and flip.
After 2 weeks into flower i added 4 hours of MH in the morning and 4 Hours in the evening in addition to the 12 hour HPS until the end of week 8 and end the MH supplement and finish under only HPS.
Always very hard solid bud, heavy tricome development and very heavy weight.
Again, why?
I dont know the science behind any of it, just years of screwing with the same lights with differant setups till i found something that really worked every time.
Now if i can get these results from LEDs ill be a happy stoner.
The biggest plus to the LEDs so far is cooler grow room.
I believe it 'IS" possible, we just gotta keep trying the many possibilities available to us.
This is the best time to be growin!

 

[Photon Pharms]

Anecdotal evidence here, interpret as you wish.
Wildfires burning on the western slope and now front range of colorado have created long lasting sunrises and sunsets. At times it seems as if there is a 2700K hps lamp in the sky, very orange.
View attachment 20356
This is honey sundae
View attachment 20357
She was flowered indoors then revegged and is being reflowered by light dep outdoors. As standard there is much more leaf material, however it seems as if over the flower initiation the node spacing has elongated to a greater extent than when indoor.

Lived in Steamboat, can confirm extended sunsets due to mountain fires.

 

[DopeDaniel]

Lived in Steamboat, can confirm extended sunsets due to mountain fires.

One started the other day in the pouder canyon and another today near hot sulfur springs.

I guess ill toss this in this discussion.
Im on my second round with 6 of the Kingbrite 288 panels. All have red, far red and UV. 2 are unswitched and the other 4 have switches.
Im experimenting now with the reds, i ran them 8 of 10 weeks in flower last grow and was not pleased with the results.
This time i switched reds on 1 week before turning lights back and will leave them on 2 additional weeks in my tent and 4 in the big room.
Why? I dont know. Just to see i suppose.
With that let me explain what i was doing before the LEDs.
I ran HID for years and had come up with a great system that worked pretty darn good and is somewhat along the lines of your question i think. I could consistently pull 10 ozs per plant every time.
I vegged under2 600w MH conversion bulbs for 6 weeks, switch to 2 600w HPS for two weeks and flip.
After 2 weeks into flower i added 4 hours of MH in the morning and 4 Hours in the evening in addition to the 12 hour HPS until the end of week 8 and end the MH supplement and finish under only HPS.
Always very hard solid bud, heavy tricome development and very heavy weight.
Again, why?
I dont know the science behind any of it, just years of screwing with the same lights with differant setups till i found something that really worked every time.
Now if i can get these results from LEDs ill be a happy stoner.
The biggest plus to the LEDs so far is cooler grow room.
I believe it 'IS" possible, we just gotta keep trying the many possibilities available to us.
This is the best time to be growin!

Are you running the uv in veg? If so have you switched them off for this time the reds on in veg? Also do you flip the uv off the last 2 weeks of flower?

 

[Photon Pharms]

One started the other day in the pouder canyon and another today near hot sulfur springs.


Are you running the uv in veg? If so have you switched them off for this time the reds on in veg? Also do you flip the uv off the last 2 weeks of flower?

I personally have boards with the switches as well, my problem with that is the lack of automation. Especially when it comes to the far red. As they should be run alone for a few after lights out. I believe, and I just woke so I could be way wrong at this moment, but that is the important part. Only that spectrum is shown. So I personally run separate red "bud booster" boards. But again I'm half asleep so I may be thinking wrong. And with the uv, the diodes on most boards like you and I have. I'm not sure what kingbrite uses but I have some solid lg uv diodes, but I do not know yet if it's enough to make the difference that one should be looking for when hitting the flowers with uv. I run a reptile light(uvb flory tube) 15 minutes in the morning at lights on 15 minutes again around mid day and then again in the "evening" I have not tried to not run the tube since having these boards though. So I'm not really sure if they are intense enough to compare or not. Same with my reds. But that's what I'm testing out now. And where this question lies. I have a pretty good idea on a lot of this, I just was curious what others were finding or running themselves. You NEVER know enough. At least I don't.

 

[LittleDabbie]

Where did this 15 min timer stuff come from?

My LEDS are running far red no switch or anything for that spectrum only uv-a.. 12 hours on..

Its been 16 days under them and if you check my grow log you can see they seem pretty happy.

Not that i have a choice like i said theres no switch on mine for Far Red, Only a switch for veg/flower then a switch for UV-A for the last 3-4 weeks of flower. But thats on the lower red spectrum.

I think alot of the information out there that i was reading was grower speculation vs actual science on the matter, LEDS have come along way..

 

[Photon Pharms]

Where did this 15 min timer stuff come from?

My LEDS are running far red no switch or anything for that spectrum only uv-a.. 12 hours on..

Its been 16 days under them and if you check my grow log you can see they seem pretty happy.

Not that i have a choice like i said theres no switch on mine for Far Red, Only a switch for veg/flower then a switch for UV-A for the last 3-4 weeks of flower. But thats on the lower red spectrum.

I think alot of the information out there that i was reading was grower speculation vs actual science on the matter, LEDS have come along way..

The timer and intensity of far red, for me anyway, comes from Bruce bugbee, founder of apogee instruments and head teacher of cannabis horticulture at Utah state university I believe. The purpose is to promote a faster "sleep" process for the plant, which in turn DOES speed up flowering quite a bit. It is not a necessity or even something I'd promote for most people. For me, it's just fun to mess with stuff. Think of it like cars. We all have them, they get us from point a to b. But some people just NEED to be under the hood, they're never going to race the car, at least not professionally, but they like to make that car run at tip top shape because it's their hobby and that aspect of it is either fun or interesting. I believe that's what you're asking. Again, most of what I'm discussing here in this thread is not for most growers. Please don't take my comment as rude or anything like that, it is most definitely not meant that way. I personally am just super into "tinkering" that's really all this is. Does any of it produce results that are hands down SUPERIOR to other more basic methods, not really. Can I shave off a second on my lap times, yup sure can, and that makes me happy. That's all. ? The reason I started this thread was to find some other "tinkerers" just made that word up pretty sure. Same could be said for a lot of aspects of growing. Especially if you go back to the 60s to now, with fertilizers. Miracle gro will work, not well, but most people nowadays, like to have more control over feeding and therefore, and with the ease of it these days, folks use 3 part feeds, and supplements etc... I think of it kind of like that. I mean, honestly, look at the horticulture lighting industry over just the last ten years. Talk about a difference. There wasn't a lot of any otlf this far red talk uv talk ten years ago. At last not like it is. Maybe ten years is a bit short, but you get the idea.

 

[Photon Pharms]

Where did this 15 min timer stuff come from?

My LEDS are running far red no switch or anything for that spectrum only uv-a.. 12 hours on..

Its been 16 days under them and if you check my grow log you can see they seem pretty happy.

Not that i have a choice like i said theres no switch on mine for Far Red, Only a switch for veg/flower then a switch for UV-A for the last 3-4 weeks of flower. But thats on the lower red spectrum.

I think alot of the information out there that i was reading was grower speculation vs actual science on the matter, LEDS have come along way..

Hey thanks my brotha, I always feel like my posts come off rude or condescending, and that is USUALLY not the case. If it is, I not afraid to turn it up to eleven. Hahaha. But im very glad you didn't take it that way. Like I said, just tinkering. Some of it works and works well. I will attest for the far red manipulation, it does speed up flowering. The uv I'm honestly on the fence. Now I do believe it is a good thing to have, in moderation. But im not 100% sure that I'm getting "extra frost" from it. The theory makes sense, the plant is producing trichs to protect against the uv as in nature, but it something I still need to play with. Now, because I never know when to quit, I'm looking into low and mid blue at lights on. Faster wake up. Again, shaving seconds off a lap. But just shows you kind of what's out there. I'll be honest though, it's all kind of a pain in the ass, so you really have to love fucking with it or it's just not worth it. Get a solid producing, FULL SPECTRUM light, sup in uv or far red if not included, and you're doing great. Shit, you're doing great and in style in my opinion.

 

[LittleDabbie]

Hey thanks my brotha, I always feel like my posts come off rude or condescending, and that is USUALLY not the case. If it is, I not afraid to turn it up to eleven. Hahaha. But im very glad you didn't take it that way. Like I said, just tinkering. Some of it works and works well. I will attest for the far red manipulation, it does speed up flowering. The uv I'm honestly on the fence. Now I do believe it is a good thing to have, in moderation. But im not 100% sure that I'm getting "extra frost" from it. The theory makes sense, the plant is producing trichs to protect against the uv as in nature, but it something I still need to play with. Now, because I never know when to quit, I'm looking into low and mid blue at lights on. Faster wake up. Again, shaving seconds off a lap. But just shows you kind of what's out there. I'll be honest though, it's all kind of a pain in the ass, so you really have to love fucking with it or it's just not worth it. Get a solid producing, FULL SPECTRUM light, sup in uv or far red if not included, and you're doing great. Shit, you're doing great and in style in my opinion.

Not at all, One thing alot of us forget is we don't know each other well enough to gauge how the conversation is going so i try and just read text as text and not assume i know how anyone is feeling when they wrote it, Less there straight up attacking me then i know how they felt rofl.

Rude or condescending tho you are bout the farthest thing from it, I think your letting your inner anxiety get the better of ya on that 1

Nope i found your explanation very easy to understand far from the video above with Dr LED tryin to explain light to me.. a toddler!

I would totally think having to switch all the time would be a pain in the ass why wouldn't they have figured out a way to automate that if the intention is to on off for such short periods of time

I'm wonering whats gonna happen when i kick on my UV-A switch for flowering the last 3-4 weeks, Same thing as far red but this is near red? lol

I guess time shall tell but tinkering is good! I like progress pics too have i missed your grow log or ?

And thank you!!!!!!!!!! Its nice to hear im doing something right! I feel like im stumbling thru it like most things in life and just winging everything right now lol

I do have to credit the growers and people who i followed for 6-8 years just reading the forums before i started my own grow that prolly helped the most Researching is key!

anyway keep up the thread i'm learning alot as i go so thnk you!!

And don't let that anxiety talk you down! You A1 in my book!

 

[DopeDaniel]

Good convo, a bit wordy but hey, jk.

A comment on the way @Saro01 is running the uvb reptile bulbs - they are powerful at 2ft or more plants can handle more time but at typical led hanging distances it is difficult imo to get the duration needed to have the desired effect. Yes the plants are geeting the dose but if they were to receive that dose over a longer time it is more effective. Difficult to do with bulbs imo.

I don't know these kingbright boards but guessing the switches go to independent drivers, if so replace the switch with a plug and a timer and viola automation.

@LittleDabbie i belive combining hps and mh is probably the best way to use that tech for cannabis, its what I did 25 years ago. I was trying to see how you would emulate your whole technique with the leds.

 

[MaxBang]

@Badmofo529 posted this earlier.
The presenter has more relevant credentials than any other I know.

Lectures/webinars for a deeper understanding

As I have began to grasp a basic understanding of the general growing process, I have began to try and get a deeper understanding of everything to be more effective at providing what the plants really need. Instead of just knowing that things work, I think its better to know how and why they...

phenohunter.org

"Light money" carries more inertia than any other purchase. Wether target timed, or omni-present, I believe it is wise to round out the spectrum game.

Thank you for posting this link. Prof B is very smart on this topic. I was planning to set up a system with RapiLED's far red pucks. I needed this insight.

 

[MaxBang]

I am a newbie here. I really feel like a newbie still growing cannabis. I latched onto this FarRed idea because I hoped to shorten my growing time. I truly appreciate all who post here. Thanks.

 

[Photon Pharms]

I am a newbie here. I really feel like a newbie still growing cannabis. I latched onto this FarRed idea because I hoped to shorten my growing time. I truly appreciate all who post here. Thanks.

Bruce Bugbee at apogee instruments is an excellent source if not funny source for spectrum related stuff. The link above is a good. "the forgotten photon" haha I still here him saying that. He's a trip. Great guy, great material.

 

[MaxBang]

I use an HLG 650R and I have had really good results. I've added the far red lights from Rapid LED to try and shorten the time cause electricity is expensive. They are mounted on metal shelf brackets turned upside down I picked up for $ 0.98 from Hellmart. I attached them with a bit of thermal tape and a screw, so the metal bracket functions as a little bit of a heat-sink. I will continue updating as I go if anyone is interested. this picture is after the main light shut down and the reds run for another 30 mins.

Far Red Initiator Puck

.

rapidled.com

HLG 650R

High Efficiency Commercial Indoor Horticulture LED grow light designed to replace a double-ended 1000watt HID with just 6100 Watts. 1700 PPF @ 2.8PPF/W. Full-spectrum. LED Module made by Samsung. Powered by Samsung LM301H LED and Deep Red LED 660nm

horticulturelightinggroup.com

Happy Frog® Potting Soil - FoxFarm Soil & Fertilizer Company

Happy Frog® Potting Soil is a nutrient-rich growing media for use in containers. It is amended with soil microbes that help improve root efficiency and encourage nutrient uptake.

foxfarm.com

Ocean Forest® Potting Soil - FoxFarm Soil & Fertilizer Company

Our most popular potting soil, Ocean Forest® is a powerhouse blend of aged forest products, sphagnum peat moss, earthworm castings, bat guano, fish emulsion, and crab meal.

foxfarm.com

 

[greyfader]

i know this is 2 years old but lately, I have seen a lot of cannabis growers jump on the far-red bandwagon because of the video "Far-red; the forgotten photon" from dr Bugbee.

he is a general-purpose crop physiologist and not a cannabis-specific one.

he is still eminently qualified to discuss cannabis but the listener should be aware that he is talking about plants in general, most times.

so the red-far red video was mostly aimed at growers of shade-tolerant plants like lettuce.

he clearly states that far-red causes elongation in almost all plants.

starting at about 21:00 he starts dealing with the subject of shade tolerance and shade avoidance. at about 25:00 he states that adding far-red to indoor shade avoiding plants may not be such a great idea.

"short plants are happy plants", is an approximate quote from Lucas of the Lucas formula fame.

later

 

[Frimpong]

When I first switched to LED I had not the best results. Ended up taking a year year and a half off and trying them again. Not sure why but the ones I have now with the far reds are insane .