Salts. Organic?

Paxgenetics

In Bloom
Lol, some folks have it in for "organics". This was a fun read.

We all have our own twist on things. That's what's makes it fun and keeps it interesting.

In keeping it brass tacks. Here's what the dictionary has to say about organic.
  1. 1.
    relating to or derived from living matter.

    2.
    (of food or farming methods) produced or involving production without the use of chemical fertilizers, pesticides, or other artificial agents.
    "organic farming"
When it comes to soil in my mind organic is a living, natural cycle. The soil food web.

As brother @Gweedo's Growroom mentioned. In a natural environment the plants are communicating with the microbes in the rhizosphere. Plants trade chemical exudates with microbes for work trade...making certain nutrients available when needed. There is a chain of soil biology responsible for making these minerals available. When we start applying pre chelated nutrients to a natural organic system we bypass the soil food web.

The only way pre chelated nutrients are available to the plant is through direct contact with the roots. The rest sits in the soil unused. Increasing salinity, potentially and eventually building up to toxic levels causing more issues.

When we bypass the soil food web with salts the microbes shut down and stop doing work. Some microbes are killed on the spot and others will go dormant. It takes a long time for the micro heard to get back to functioning like it was before the salt feeding. Some microbes may never come back without being introduced from compost/ewc and/or extracts and tea applications.

There are some folks who get pretty tech about the balance between salt applications and adding microbes back to the system with compost/EWC extracts and teas. They are constantly taking slide samples and observing them under magnification, 400x or better. It can be done but that methodology doesn't fit into "organic". Imho.

I understand there is money involved and "organic" produce fetches a much higher price in the supermarkets. In defense of organic certification. My friend owns a certified organic garlic seed operation. He does most of the work himself. He works his ass off. It's 6 acres. Three, 2 acre plots. Garlic is pretty demanding on soil so it needs to be rotated to allow the soil to rest. He plants 2 acres a season. Then he rotates. Planting cover crops for two years on the plots in between garlic plantings. Then feeding the soil bagged amendments depending on the results of the soil tests before planting garlic again. He applys composts, teas and has a vermicompost pile going. If you've ever seen an organic farm vs a farm that depends on chemical fertilizers. You'll want to eat the organic produce. Besides one being heathier than the other. There is a major difference in flavor. Not to mention the care that goes into it.

However, OMRI allows the use of soft rock phosphate and azomite. Both are rich in heavy metals and should be left in the mineral deposits where they are...imo. SRP also contains radioactive chemicals...radium, thorium etc. Considering cannais is a bioaccumulator it easily absorbs these materials from the soil. They end up in the resin glands of our final product.

Peat bogs are an important natural environment to this planet and shouldn't be exploited. However we do exploit them. Im not defending the use of peat in agriculture. But agricultural demands on peat moss is at the bottom of the list. Peat moss is commercially harvested in northern Europe to heat homes and businesses. In Malaysia peat bogs are being drained and/or burned to make more farm land. Alot of greenhouse gases are released from the draining, burning and harvesting of peat bogs. I'm guilty of using peat moss occasionally in my soil mixes...

Tariconal was mentioned above. I think Tariconal is a software program and Traconal is a medication. Maybe you meant triacontanol? Triacontanol is a plant hormone in the form of fatty alcohol that is insoluble in water. It needs to be processed to be isolated.

Solubility: Triacontanol is insoluble in water, difficult to dissolve in cold ethanol, benzene, soluble in chloroform, methylene chloride.
Solubility: Insoluble in water, Soluble in hot hydrocarbon, alcohol and chloroform.

Alfalfa is rich in Triacontanol. It's in the wax on the surface of the leaves. Which is why it's in beeswax. An alfalfa brew/tea wont have Triacontanol. The soil makes it available but it takes a long time. Triacontanol is good stuff but too much becoming available late in bloom can cause foxtailing.

There are many sources for organic soil inputs. Mother nature is the best source. Seasonal forage from your backyard or a forest is a good source. Seasonal forage makes for a healthy soil...imho.

I dont mean to be an ass about this. Just trying to elaborate and add my two cents. I think everyone's opinion is valuable. We all learn together which makes for a good conversation.
This was the best one yet super informative, I myself am guilty of using soils with peat moss, I was on a organic amendment regiment for a while but recently switched to the salts. The consistency with the salts is much better then the organics indoors IMO, was using roots organics amendments. Outside I truly try to reuse re purpose and strictly use self made compost teas and different ferments from my chicken shit rich soil and all the other shit I got around the homestead. I do agree with the preservations of the peat bogs I actually grew up down the road from an old one it was all excavated and the rain over the years as well as local creeks filled it up and actually became a pretty good fishing spot, there was always blue heron and lot of wild life around my father said before they excavated. Humans man ruining this planet
 

Paxgenetics

In Bloom
This was the best one yet super informative, I myself am guilty of using soils with peat moss, I was on a organic amendment regiment for a while but recently switched to the salts. The consistency with the salts is much better then the organics indoors IMO, was using roots organics amendments. Outside I truly try to reuse re purpose and strictly use self made compost teas and different ferments from my chicken shit rich soil and all the other shit I got around the homestead. I do agree with the preservations of the peat bogs I actually grew up down the road from an old one it was all excavated and the rain over the years as well as local creeks filled it up and actually became a pretty good fishing spot, there was always blue heron and lot of wild life around my father said before they excavated. Humans man ruining this planet
I do want to add I don’t reuse my soil indoors but I do save all my potted soil for my garden beds and mix it in in the spring with a cover crop
 

thesunnyvalekid

Boutique Auto Service
Lol, some folks have it in for "organics". This was a fun read.

We all have our own twist on things. That's what's makes it fun and keeps it interesting.

In keeping it brass tacks. Here's what the dictionary has to say about organic.
  1. 1.
    relating to or derived from living matter.

    2.
    (of food or farming methods) produced or involving production without the use of chemical fertilizers, pesticides, or other artificial agents.
    "organic farming"
When it comes to soil in my mind organic is a living, natural cycle. The soil food web.

As brother @Gweedo's Growroom mentioned. In a natural environment the plants are communicating with the microbes in the rhizosphere. Plants trade chemical exudates with microbes for work trade...making certain nutrients available when needed. There is a chain of soil biology responsible for making these minerals available. When we start applying pre chelated nutrients to a natural organic system we bypass the soil food web.

The only way pre chelated nutrients are available to the plant is through direct contact with the roots. The rest sits in the soil unused. Increasing salinity, potentially and eventually building up to toxic levels causing more issues.

When we bypass the soil food web with salts the microbes shut down and stop doing work. Some microbes are killed on the spot and others will go dormant. It takes a long time for the micro heard to get back to functioning like it was before the salt feeding. Some microbes may never come back without being introduced from compost/ewc and/or extracts and tea applications.

There are some folks who get pretty tech about the balance between salt applications and adding microbes back to the system with compost/EWC extracts and teas. They are constantly taking slide samples and observing them under magnification, 400x or better. It can be done but that methodology doesn't fit into "organic". Imho.

I understand there is money involved and "organic" produce fetches a much higher price in the supermarkets. In defense of organic certification. My friend owns a certified organic garlic seed operation. He does most of the work himself. He works his ass off. It's 6 acres. Three, 2 acre plots. Garlic is pretty demanding on soil so it needs to be rotated to allow the soil to rest. He plants 2 acres a season. Then he rotates. Planting cover crops for two years on the plots in between garlic plantings. Then feeding the soil bagged amendments depending on the results of the soil tests before planting garlic again. He applys composts, teas and has a vermicompost pile going. If you've ever seen an organic farm vs a farm that depends on chemical fertilizers. You'll want to eat the organic produce. Besides one being heathier than the other. There is a major difference in flavor. Not to mention the care that goes into it.

However, OMRI allows the use of soft rock phosphate and azomite. Both are rich in heavy metals and should be left in the mineral deposits where they are...imo. SRP also contains radioactive chemicals...radium, thorium etc. Considering cannais is a bioaccumulator it easily absorbs these materials from the soil. They end up in the resin glands of our final product.

Peat bogs are an important natural environment to this planet and shouldn't be exploited. However we do exploit them. Im not defending the use of peat in agriculture. But agricultural demands on peat moss is at the bottom of the list. Peat moss is commercially harvested in northern Europe to heat homes and businesses. In Malaysia peat bogs are being drained and/or burned to make more farm land. Alot of greenhouse gases are released from the draining, burning and harvesting of peat bogs. I'm guilty of using peat moss occasionally in my soil mixes...

Tariconal was mentioned above. I think Tariconal is a software program and Traconal is a medication. Maybe you meant triacontanol? Triacontanol is a plant hormone in the form of fatty alcohol that is insoluble in water. It needs to be processed to be isolated.

Solubility: Triacontanol is insoluble in water, difficult to dissolve in cold ethanol, benzene, soluble in chloroform, methylene chloride.
Solubility: Insoluble in water, Soluble in hot hydrocarbon, alcohol and chloroform.

Alfalfa is rich in Triacontanol. It's in the wax on the surface of the leaves. Which is why it's in beeswax. An alfalfa brew/tea wont have Triacontanol. The soil makes it available but it takes a long time. Triacontanol is good stuff but too much becoming available late in bloom can cause foxtailing.

There are many sources for organic soil inputs. Mother nature is the best source. Seasonal forage from your backyard or a forest is a good source. Seasonal forage makes for a healthy soil...imho.

I dont mean to be an ass about this. Just trying to elaborate and add my two cents. I think everyone's opinion is valuable. We all learn together which makes for a good conversation.
Very nice explanation, good read.
 
Kinda have been hearing mixed answers around . If salt nutes are derived from organic substances, would growing with salts be considered organic? Would love to hear what you all have to say
Do not think of salt only as sodium chloride or table salt. That's not the salts being addressed in horticulture typically. Unless of course you're talking about say Epsom salts. Yes salts are part of and involved in organic gardening, specifically if you are feeding soup style, or basically mixing nutrients in water then applying via a watering. I highly recommend slf100 to anyone who has a concern of build up. But the quick answer is yes, and the quick solution aside from maintenance flushes, is slf100. Hope that helps. I'm still waking up.
 

BH

Tha Dank Hoarder
IPM Forum Moderator
Do not think of salt only as sodium chloride or table salt. That's not the salts being addressed in horticulture typically. Unless of course you're talking about say Epsom salts. Yes salts are part of and involved in organic gardening, specifically if you are feeding soup style, or basically mixing nutrients in water then applying via a watering. I highly recommend slf100 to anyone who has a concern of build up. But the quick answer is yes, and the quick solution aside from maintenance flushes, is slf100. Hope that helps. I'm still waking up.
not arguing but as a suggestion for enzymes and supplement look up how much that product listed above per gallon it is and how how concentrated it truly is.

pond zyme is 16,000 gallons rated and around 25 bucks and I even do 2x-4x what is suggested and the rep said more the better so I’m fine with 4-8k gallons vs 16k min suggested dosage per 25 bucks vs the hydro versions and they are def more expensive and less concentration and less efficient feeder ( they use barely )

Amazon product
 
not arguing but as a suggestion for enzymes and supplement look up how much that product listed above per gallon it is and how how concentrated it truly is.

pond zyme is 16,000 gallons rated and around 25 bucks and I even do 2x-4x what is suggested and the rep said more the better so I’m fine with 4-8k gallons vs 16k min suggested dosage per 25 bucks vs the hydro versions and they are def more expensive and less concentration and less efficient feeder ( they use barely )

Amazon product

Yeah that product may work well also. I have just used slf100 personally for a while now and I have had great success. I'm sure there's always other products. Hydrozyme is another one that comes to mind. The world is full of options, choose the one that suits you best. I can only recommend the products I have personally used successfully.
 

Gentlemancorpse

Cannabis Chaotician
Staff member
Moderator
Yeah that product may work well also. I have just used slf100 personally for a while now and I have had great success. I'm sure there's always other products. Hydrozyme is another one that comes to mind. The world is full of options, choose the one that suits you best. I can only recommend the products I have personally used successfully.
I started using SLF100 recently and absolutely love it. Kind of pricey but it lasts a long time. Helps me extra since I don't like watering to excessive runoff even in coco. The SLF really helps breakdown the buildups in my coco so the lack of runoff isn't as big of a deal. Totally off topic since I'm not even remotely organic at the moment but I get excited when I see people recommend products I love lol
 
I started using SLF100 recently and absolutely love it. Kind of pricey but it lasts a long time. Helps me extra since I don't like watering to excessive runoff even in coco. The SLF really helps breakdown the buildups in my coco so the lack of runoff isn't as big of a deal. Totally off topic since I'm not even remotely organic at the moment but I get excited when I see people recommend products I love lol
Yeah, it's a staple at my place. Expensive, but I know it works and works very well, so it's worth it to me. Same could be said about mammoth p, there are definitely much cheaper options out there, but I have been using it for a long time now, I know it works and works well. So it's worth the cost, plus when you actually see the dosages, you realize that it last for a while.
 
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