A Look at Jack's, Greengene's and Other Salt Ideas

[ExNavyInSTL]

I'm a Salts Guy. I started on Jack's. Then I tried FlorFlex. That led me down the D-I-Y make your salt nutrient path.

I'm circling back and embracing Jack's again, although I still have to give up on my recipes. I am just mixing it up.

I learned quite a bit from YouTube and GreenGenes Garden videos. He inspired me to learn HydroBuddy and break down each nutrient by its "elemental" PPM (not talking E.C.).

So, let's start with the evolution of Jack's (as I understand it).

For cannabis, Jack's are known for their 3-2-1.

The Original Jack's 3-2-1



The Current Jack's 3-2-1


Greengage likes the 4 (A) - 2 (B) - 0 for his Veg.

However, Greengene has had more adventurous flower recipes since joining the "No Nitrogen" Part A Club (0-12-26).

GG Early Flower Mix


GG Late Flower Mix



Since I have a Shit Load of 13-0-0 Part B on Hand, I'm Looking at This for Late Flower:



What are you guys running for Veg and Flower?

Do you have a variety of E.C. levels that you like?

 

[Jewels]

It is Canadian, eh ?

Optimisation of Nitrogen, Phosphorus, and Potassium for Soilless Production of Cannabis sativa in the Flowering Stage Using Response Surface Analysis - PMC

Following legalisation, cannabis has quickly become an important horticultural crop in Canada and increasingly so in other parts of the world. However, due to previous legal restrictions on cannabis research there are limited scientific data on the ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Based on the results of this study, we recommend providing plants with a nutrient solution containing N and P at approximately 194 and 59 mg L–1, respectively, to achieve maximal inflorescence yield


formulations that contain very high levels of P (more than 200 mg L–1 P in some cases). This practice is based on anecdotal evidence that P enhances inflorescence production. These concentrations are much higher than the optimal rate of 60 mg L–1 P found in our study, and at the higher range could cause reduction of both plant growth and inflorescence yield

 

[ExNavyInSTL]

Spend some time in this video. Dr. Bernstein dials in it on more nutrients as well.



Link to Video: Nirit Bernstein: The power of nutrient management for optimizing Cannabis yield quantity and quality

Dr. Bernstein knows her weed. Scholastically speaking of course. ; )

It is Canadian, eh ?

Optimisation of Nitrogen, Phosphorus, and Potassium for Soilless Production of Cannabis sativa in the Flowering Stage Using Response Surface Analysis - PMC

Following legalisation, cannabis has quickly become an important horticultural crop in Canada and increasingly so in other parts of the world. However, due to previous legal restrictions on cannabis research there are limited scientific data on the ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Based on the results of this study, we recommend providing plants with a nutrient solution containing N and P at approximately 194 and 59 mg L–1, respectively, to achieve maximal inflorescence yield


formulations that contain very high levels of P (more than 200 mg L–1 P in some cases). This practice is based on anecdotal evidence that P enhances inflorescence production. These concentrations are much higher than the optimal rate of 60 mg L–1 P found in our study, and at the higher range could cause reduction of both plant growth and inflorescence yield

 

[Willie]

Hmmmmm ...Jacks 123. I mix it up in the factory specified ratio. Never looked at one of those charts. Same mix for veg and flower. Which was Greengenes initial recommendation before he became a youtube star. I add a little flower girl on top of the pot in flower. Life is simple and Jacks is easy.

 

[Amarok]

Life is simple and Jacks is easy.

I appreciate those with the ambition to do all the tweaking and experimenting but I'm with you. "Keep It Simple, Stoner", and there isn't much that's more simple than Jack's.

 

[Gatorbackbob]

I've tried a bunch of lines, I'm quite happy with a 2 part Lucas formula 6ml micro 9ml bloom seed to weed, I tend to add a few things during flower, some epsom salts and an added high pk boost. I've been looking at jacks 321 to try out. I used lotus for a while, tried house and garden, botanicare, and notg. I really loved the results of house and garden but I like to keep things simple AF, no ph, tap water straight from the sink. The main thing I have been trying to find is what leaves the finished product with the best flavor. Botanicare was the standout for flavor, but not by miles. Yields were all the same. Lotus was the only one I had some macro issues with. Has anyone compared the jacks to veg+bloom?

 

[Willie]

I appreciate those with the ambition to do all the tweaking and experimenting but I'm with you. "Keep It Simple, Stoner", and there isn't much that's more simple than Jack's.

Megacrop was easy.....but oh so green....heck never seen a fade on that. Jacks was an upgrade from there. I use volume measures for Jacks to make a concentrate and then I mix what I'll use from that. It's so consistent I don't even check ppm hardly. I feed in promix, and it's usually at 400ish ppms.

 

[Jewels]

Very interesting video, @ExNavyInSTL.

I am about 40 mins in.
Intriguing, that lower NPK produces high terp concentration.
Would this add credibility to the Bro Science that organic plants are tastier?

At the moment ( 40:25 ) she is illustrating that there is no benefit to ammonia over nitrate.
I suggest the results would be different, using harder water.

(I would hope that) these 'consumer ready ' salt products are thoroughly researched and complete.
Canadian labeling contains more information, there are more details there for the buyer.
Every grower is going to bring their own variables to the table.
Bertsien mentions how targeting rate of 'A' always seeks to skew ratio 'b:c'
Also mentions that consumer products are suggesting rates five times what may be necessary.

Leaves a grower in a precarious situation.
I am sneaking in my own inputs, as I am simultaneously reducing the overall quantity of the manufacturer's inputs. It is always my fear that something will be neglected ( unavailable ,insufficient quantity, or ratio ) during the handoff.

It is a conundrum. The more I read about it, the less I know. Now is the fear of piloting myself into a contradiction. Like, I'm not a doctor, why should I be prescribing anything for my garden?
Go to one doctor and he says 'this is good for your heart'
Go to another doctor and they say 'take these for prolonged erections'
Perhaps they are both right, but it may not turn out so good for me

 

[Captain Sternn]

I used Southern Ag Power Pak 30-30-30 until last year and jumped to a different brand but still at 30 or maybe 25 across the board. In flower I cut N to not more than 3, so neighborhood of 3-52-15. Last year I felt like not enough trace nutes were getting delivered or not being taken up, so this year I'll be taking a Centrum super vita-bomb every day and then pissing next to the plants. Might think about some trace formula if the whizzigating doesn't work.

I have a friend who draws his grow water off the bottom of a small fish pond that's been there for decades, he uses salts at about 15-15-15, his plants get stupid big.

 

[Willie]

I used Southern Ag Power Pak 30-30-30 until last year and jumped to a different brand but still at 30 or maybe 25 across the board. In flower I cut N to not more than 3, so neighborhood of 3-52-15. Last year I felt like not enough trace nutes were getting delivered or not being taken up, so this year I'll be taking a Centrum super vita-bomb every day and then pissing next to the plants. Might think about some trace formula if the whizzigating doesn't work.

I have a friend who draws his grow water off the bottom of a small fish pond that's been there for decades, he uses salts at about 15-15-15, his plants get stupid big.

neighborhood of 3-52-15

That's a lotta P there at 52! Jacks makes a 10-30-20............and that only gets used for a couple of weeks in their system. P is good but too much leads to issues and the plants need and use nitrogen their entire lives.
Are you growing in soil/promix?

I've used that Jacks 10-30-20 now for a few years and I use it sparingly because I think it makes a lot of branch.

 

[Captain Sternn]

That's a lotta P there at 52! Jacks makes a 10-30-20............and that only gets used for a couple of weeks in their system. P is good but too much leads to issues and the plants need and use nitrogen their entire lives.
Are you growing in soil/promix?

I've used that Jacks 10-30-20 now for a few years and I use it sparingly because I think it makes a lot of branch.

It is a lot of P, especially following weeks of 30. Last year was the first year I went that high and I can't recall now if I ever gave a full dose of that or not, I also use all this stuff sparingly until I see the plants are tolerating it. I grow in native soil that has Miracle-Gro garden soil and clay (ammonite? / oil dry) mixed in. I'm still trying to find my way so to speak, luckily haven't wrought total destruction upon anything yet. They get fed about every 7-10 days.

 

[DopeDaniel]

One of the coolest features to that hydro buddy program as I recall is it has pre loaded info for basically all the products available from custom hydro. Even the non salts.

Love my organics but I keep some salt in my back pocket.

The, hmmmm, guess I'll call it concern I have with a pure salt diet is proper chelation and the persistence of chelating agents in native soil. I felt like megacrop had the right idea (real close with rev 3 or 4 I think, the one with cal-nit prills you could screen out to maybe induce fade @Willie ) but I'm not confident they had the resources to manufacture at scale with profit. Notice the blue bottles of micro nutrients (iron and zinc) above are amino acid chelated. I use them via foliar when I want, I don't think they would be cost effective in the reservoir.

EDTA and DDHA are the two synthetic I guess though I'm not sure that's the right term, chelating agents I am thinking of and so far as I understand they offer the most cost effective options but honestly this is where I go organic and say f it water only let the plants and "living soil" figure it out.

Back to salts, kinda. There are something like 19 essential amino acids arganine, glycine, and lucine are 3 that I recall seeing used for plant fertilizers. Is there a way to home formulate amino acid chelated micronutrients? I think so but again I believe I have been outsmarted by a worm so I will let them do it.

Whizgating sounds fun and potentially incriminating btw @Captain Sternn

 

[Jewels]

The, hmmmm, guess I'll call it concern I have with a pure salt diet is proper chelation and the persistence of chelating agents in native soil.

I always have this nagging horror that I'm mixing up a precipitating batch of nothing.

EDTA and DDHA are the two synthetic I guess though I'm not sure that's the right term, chelating agents I am thinking of and so far as I understand they offer the most cost effective options but honestly this is where I go organic and say f it water only let the plants and "living soil" figure it out.

I have been reading about this a lot lately, as it relates to iron.
Reading about how leafy plants can exchange at the root zone. Above neutral pH they can contribute to the microclimate and manipulate the relationship between fe2 and fe3

 

[rkymtnman]

It is Canadian, eh ?

Optimisation of Nitrogen, Phosphorus, and Potassium for Soilless Production of Cannabis sativa in the Flowering Stage Using Response Surface Analysis - PMC

Following legalisation, cannabis has quickly become an important horticultural crop in Canada and increasingly so in other parts of the world. However, due to previous legal restrictions on cannabis research there are limited scientific data on the ...

www.ncbi.nlm.nih.gov

Based on the results of this study, we recommend providing plants with a nutrient solution containing N and P at approximately 194 and 59 mg L–1, respectively, to achieve maximal inflorescence yield


formulations that contain very high levels of P (more than 200 mg L–1 P in some cases). This practice is based on anecdotal evidence that P enhances inflorescence production. These concentrations are much higher than the optimal rate of 60 mg L–1 P found in our study, and at the higher range could cause reduction of both plant growth and inflorescence yield

I found that study too. been using it in my custom mix of coco/hydroton/sunshine 4. love it. they stay nice and green. see the latest pic of grease's in the 313 thread.

to get the target numbers:

12ml CES micro (6/0/0)
9ml GH bloom (0/5/4)
1 gram epsom (Mg and Su)
bloom city clean kelp (bit more K)

result is 220/60/ 100-ish

glad somebody else found that study too.

 

[ExNavyInSTL]

I always have this nagging horror that I'm mixing up a precipitating batch of nothing.

This is why I am back on Jacks. This was such a problematic grow that I lost confidence. Maybe it has nothing to do with my recipe, but someone here mentioned I may have messed up somewhere.

This is the recipe I created when I started making my salt nutrients.

It took me forever to define the ratio of how much Chelator (EDTA Disodium) and Preservative (Sodium Benzoate).

Once I worked out those two parts (I've already forgotten how I arrived at the final numbers), I was off and running.

I've posted this recipe on the site before. I have run this several crops in a row without problems.

I ran this through Veg and Flower with no adjustments. It is a culmination of Dr. Bernstein's theories and that of Bruce Bugbee and Harley Smith.

I also loaded some of the labels of popular dry nutrients into HydroBuddy to see what the "Pros" with excellent R&D budgets came up with.

Here are Dr. Bugbee's thoughts. He may have changed some of them since this was posted online. Note this is for "elevated CO2."



Harley Smith's:

Note how elevated he is on his P& N.



And here's mine. I make concentrates. This is 200:1, and I make a liter of A & B served at 19 ml a gallon.

It comes in at about 1.8 E.C.

I was very happy with this. I wasn't overdoing N or P.
And I had a nice 3:1 ratio with Mg and Ca.

 

[ExNavyInSTL]

Can you share how you formulate your Jacks concentrations?

That kind of math gets me confused.

Megacrop was easy.....but oh so green....heck never seen a fade on that. Jacks was an upgrade from there. I use volume measures for Jacks to make a concentrate and then I mix what I'll use from that. It's so consistent I don't even check ppm hardly. I feed in promix, and it's usually at 400ish ppms.

 

[ExNavyInSTL]

@DopeDaniel

I feel your pain

 

[Willie]

Can you share how you formulate your Jacks concentrations?

That kind of math gets me confused.

I make a concentrate in a 3 gallon based on exact ratio of 3-2-1
Part A ='s 180 g's
Epsom ='s 60 g's
Part B ='s 120 g's
I have a 3 gallon container with a sealing cap that I mix and keep the concentrate in. I put those ingredients in, and fill with water. I put 8 pieces of 3/4 gravel in the container too. For mixing, just shake......then from that container I add a cup of the concentrate to 3 gallons water and that is plant food. Finishes around 400ish ppm. My water is 70 ppm. The first batch of food I make from a fresh batch of concentrate needs to be tested for ppm...then slightly adjust your fire with how much concentrate you add to the 3 gallon (or whatever). I use a solo with a sharpie mark on it........and I'll either go fat or thin from that mark depending on that initial reading. Once you're dialed in it's very consistent ppm wise.

I use a clear plastic container as a measure. This is the huge timesaver. I initially weighed out the 321 and poured each ingredient into the container......then marked it's height with a sharpie.....for all 3 individual ingredients. That way, you just scoop it out and check the height....you're good, no need to weigh it out any more.

 

[DopeDaniel]

I feel your pain

No pain. The shelf is strong.

 

[Willie]

I make a concentrate in a 3 gallon based on exact ratio of 3-2-1
Part A ='s 180 g's
Epsom ='s 60 g's
Part B ='s 120 g's
I have a 3 gallon container with a sealing cap that I mix and keep the concentrate in. I put those ingredients in, and fill with water. I put 8 pieces of 3/4 gravel in the container too. For mixing, just shake......then from that container I add a cup of the concentrate to 3 gallons water and that is plant food. Finishes around 400ish ppm. My water is 70 ppm. The first batch of food I make from a fresh batch of concentrate needs to be tested for ppm...then slightly adjust your fire with how much concentrate you add to the 3 gallon (or whatever). I use a solo with a sharpie mark on it........and I'll either go fat or thin from that mark depending on that initial reading. Once you're dialed in it's very consistent ppm wise.

I use a clear plastic container as a measure. This is the huge timesaver. I initially weighed out the 321 and poured each ingredient into the container......then marked it's height with a sharpie.....for all 3 individual ingredients. That way, you just scoop it out and check the height....you're good, no need to weigh it out any more.

If you look at this container you can see hash marks for two A's , two B's, and two E's. Just in case I want a smaller batch concentrate to work with. The B's are on the back side of that container.