Salts. Organic?

Orion

In Bloom
I would think if it is taken up by the roots and what the plant needs to grow into a healthy plant throuhout it's life cycle...who the hell am I to label what a plant wants to eat, good or bad...Personaly I feel the whole organic thing is a play on human emotion...OMRI certification is a farse and if you can write big checks...you can be OMRI certified like magic!
 

Gentlemancorpse

Cannabis Chaotician
Kinda have been hearing mixed answers around . If salt nutes are derived from organic substances, would growing with salts be considered organic? Would love to hear what you all have to say

I don't think there's a right or wrong answer tbh. As @Orion said, being OMRI certified is often just about money. I actually hate that we use the term "organic" to describe all natural items. Because that's really what we're driving at right? At least when we're talking about growing cannabis. The word itself has so many definitions these days. The definition of organic in chemistry is simply any substance that contains carbon (outside of binary compounds and salts) and is usually derived from biological origins.

When we say soil is "organic" though we could be saying it contains mostly items derived from living organisms.... or that it's OMRI certified... and both would be a proper use of the word.

And then there's the sociological applications of the word... like "our relationship grew organically".... one would assume the relationship does not contain carbon, though it's participants might, and I doubt OMRI has certified it...

So now there's this debate... what does it mean to grow organic cannabis? Does it mean just using all naturally derived fertilizers, IPM products and mediums? Does it have to be OMRI listed (side note, only food, feed and raw materials like cotton and hemp can be Omni certified! Fertilizers and other agriculture components approved by OMRI are only considered "Listed")? Or does it mean using only mediums and nutrient sources in their most natural form?

There is definitely people on both sides of the argument. I know several growers who insist the only true organic is growing in a natural medium containing naturally occurring additives like worm casings, alfalfa, manure and compost. Others feel like their growing organic as long as the bottle says OMRI on it.

In the long run, I think it's more important for growers to consider why they want to grow organically, then come to their own conclusion. If it's environmental concerns, then yeah, bottled salts probably shouldn't count. The containers are non biodegradable plastic that's difficult to recycle and the processes they use to make the nutrient solutions are inefficient. If it's just because you don't want to add lab made nutrient solutions that can't be derived from natural products, which is valid for a variety of reasons, then sure, all natural nutrient salts could be considered a more "organic" alternative.

By and large I think people just want to feel like theyre growing their cannabis in the most natural way possible, while hurting the environment as little as possible, but that's easier said than done. For example, it's easy enough to get organic peat and coco, but there's major environmental concerns surrounding the harvesting of both products.... so is that really better than running a salt solution through a DWC system? I genuinely have no idea.

Okay. End of Greases Pieces inspired rant on organics.
 

Paxgenetics

In Bloom
I would think if it is taken up by the roots and what the plant needs to grow into a healthy plant throuhout it's life cycle...who the hell am I to label what a plant wants to eat, good or bad...Personaly I feel the whole organic thing is a play on human emotion...OMRI certification is a farse and if you can write big checks...you can be OMRI certified like magic!
Awesome feedback!
 

Paxgenetics

In Bloom
I don't think there's a right or wrong answer tbh. As @Orion said, being OMRI certified is often just about money. I actually hate that we use the term "organic" to describe all natural items. Because that's really what we're driving at right? At least when we're talking about growing cannabis. The word itself has so many definitions these days. The definition of organic in chemistry is simply any substance that contains carbon (outside of binary compounds and salts) and is usually derived from biological origins.

When we say soil is "organic" though we could be saying it contains mostly items derived from living organisms.... or that it's OMRI certified... and both would be a proper use of the word.

And then there's the sociological applications of the word... like "our relationship grew organically".... one would assume the relationship does not contain carbon, though it's participants might, and I doubt OMRI has certified it...

So now there's this debate... what does it mean to grow organic cannabis? Does it mean just using all naturally derived fertilizers, IPM products and mediums? Does it have to be OMRI listed (side note, only food, feed and raw materials like cotton and hemp can be Omni certified! Fertilizers and other agriculture components approved by OMRI are only considered "Listed")? Or does it mean using only mediums and nutrient sources in their most natural form?

There is definitely people on both sides of the argument. I know several growers who insist the only true organic is growing in a natural medium containing naturally occurring additives like worm casings, alfalfa, manure and compost. Others feel like their growing organic as long as the bottle says OMRI on it.

In the long run, I think it's more important for growers to consider why they want to grow organically, then come to their own conclusion. If it's environmental concerns, then yeah, bottled salts probably shouldn't count. The containers are non biodegradable plastic that's difficult to recycle and the processes they use to make the nutrient solutions are inefficient. If it's just because you don't want to add lab made nutrient solutions that can't be derived from natural products, which is valid for a variety of reasons, then sure, all natural nutrient salts could be considered a more "organic" alternative.

By and large I think people just want to feel like theyre growing their cannabis in the most natural way possible, while hurting the environment as little as possible, but that's easier said than done. For example, it's easy enough to get organic peat and coco, but there's major environmental concerns surrounding the harvesting of both products.... so is that really better than running a salt solution through a DWC system? I genuinely have no idea.

Okay. End of Greases Pieces inspired rant on organics.
This is awesome thank you for the feedback!!
 
My 2 cents on this subject, I've been doing tons of research into organics and I'm currently a salt user, I've pretty much broken it all into 4 sections, 1 we've got the mainstream bottled salts ie advanced,botanicare, GH etc these "salts in my mind are just all marketing hype geared to rape us growing our high dollar crops, mostly water with a few mineral based nutes added in, plus all the additives they strip out to sell seperate. They work fine but cost is just not worth it to me. 2 we've got dry salts like the jr Peter's Jack's line this is dry salts in 2 parts no water, very affordable and no additive gimmicks the 2 part with added Epsom will get you done from seed to harvest for a few bucks, and both of these salts will slay it in inert mediums like coco and hydroton, this is where I'm currently at with the jacks.3 commercial organics are again like the mainstream salts very overpriced for what your getting in some cases, 20 bones for 5 lbs of slaughterhouse waste to me is absurd, and anyone can shell out the cash to appear ORGANIC on their label ,and using these high dollar inputs found in most places marked way up Cuz they know canna growers are wanting it, seems not quite right to me, I think the 4 th category is where it's at, sourcing your organic inputs as sustainably as possible and not just going the labeled organic route, if said amendment just added to our soil was trucked and shipped from around the world it defeats the purpose in my mind, organic and sustainable have to be used together in order for it to be right with me, so you can be a fully organic grower and still be contributing to fucking our planet off, to each his own I say this is all preference and opinion, each method has its place and will work with different results, it's just up to us to choose how much impact we have on our planet as growers
✌✌🖖🖖
 

Hawkman

In Bloom
chemical or organic ? I use organic nutrients/tea's and use chemical nutrients as kind if a steroid ( only use once a week) need to look at lables for ture organic mix's if one is greatly concerned one need to make their own teas, "Kelp for Less" and "Build-a-Soil "are top places to get all you organic needs - can even make your own tariconal (natural plant growth inhibitor)
 
Kinda have been hearing mixed answers around . If salt nutes are derived from organic substances, would growing with salts be considered organic? Would love to hear what you all have to say
To directly answer the question I would say no and yes in the case of a chelated available mineral based nutrient you would directly be controlling what the plant eats, in my opinion a true organic system is alive and thriving in the soil and rootzone and the plant is controlling the rhizosphere to acquire what it wants when it wants it. If we feed the plant a readily available nitrogen source for instance then the subsystem that was providing that N may be replaced as it's no longer being used and an imbalance can occur, both systems can be using organic inputs but one way the plant is driving and the other we are, again my opinions only lol I'm still learning on the subject as it is quite vast 🤓🤓🤓
 

Kind024

In Bloom
Lol, some folks have it in for "organics". This was a fun read.

We all have our own twist on things. That's what's makes it fun and keeps it interesting.

In keeping it brass tacks. Here's what the dictionary has to say about organic.
  1. 1.
    relating to or derived from living matter.

    2.
    (of food or farming methods) produced or involving production without the use of chemical fertilizers, pesticides, or other artificial agents.
    "organic farming"
When it comes to soil in my mind organic is a living, natural cycle. The soil food web.

As brother @Gweedo's Growroom mentioned. In a natural environment the plants are communicating with the microbes in the rhizosphere. Plants trade chemical exudates with microbes for work trade...making certain nutrients available when needed. There is a chain of soil biology responsible for making these minerals available. When we start applying pre chelated nutrients to a natural organic system we bypass the soil food web.

The only way pre chelated nutrients are available to the plant is through direct contact with the roots. The rest sits in the soil unused. Increasing salinity, potentially and eventually building up to toxic levels causing more issues.

When we bypass the soil food web with salts the microbes shut down and stop doing work. Some microbes are killed on the spot and others will go dormant. It takes a long time for the micro heard to get back to functioning like it was before the salt feeding. Some microbes may never come back without being introduced from compost/ewc and/or extracts and tea applications.

There are some folks who get pretty tech about the balance between salt applications and adding microbes back to the system with compost/EWC extracts and teas. They are constantly taking slide samples and observing them under magnification, 400x or better. It can be done but that methodology doesn't fit into "organic". Imho.

I understand there is money involved and "organic" produce fetches a much higher price in the supermarkets. In defense of organic certification. My friend owns a certified organic garlic seed operation. He does most of the work himself. He works his ass off. It's 6 acres. Three, 2 acre plots. Garlic is pretty demanding on soil so it needs to be rotated to allow the soil to rest. He plants 2 acres a season. Then he rotates. Planting cover crops for two years on the plots in between garlic plantings. Then feeding the soil bagged amendments depending on the results of the soil tests before planting garlic again. He applys composts, teas and has a vermicompost pile going. If you've ever seen an organic farm vs a farm that depends on chemical fertilizers. You'll want to eat the organic produce. Besides one being heathier than the other. There is a major difference in flavor. Not to mention the care that goes into it.

However, OMRI allows the use of soft rock phosphate and azomite. Both are rich in heavy metals and should be left in the mineral deposits where they are...imo. SRP also contains radioactive chemicals...radium, thorium etc. Considering cannais is a bioaccumulator it easily absorbs these materials from the soil. They end up in the resin glands of our final product.

Peat bogs are an important natural environment to this planet and shouldn't be exploited. However we do exploit them. Im not defending the use of peat in agriculture. But agricultural demands on peat moss is at the bottom of the list. Peat moss is commercially harvested in northern Europe to heat homes and businesses. In Malaysia peat bogs are being drained and/or burned to make more farm land. Alot of greenhouse gases are released from the draining, burning and harvesting of peat bogs. I'm guilty of using peat moss occasionally in my soil mixes...

Tariconal was mentioned above. I think Tariconal is a software program and Traconal is a medication. Maybe you meant triacontanol? Triacontanol is a plant hormone in the form of fatty alcohol that is insoluble in water. It needs to be processed to be isolated.

Solubility: Triacontanol is insoluble in water, difficult to dissolve in cold ethanol, benzene, soluble in chloroform, methylene chloride.
Solubility: Insoluble in water, Soluble in hot hydrocarbon, alcohol and chloroform.

Alfalfa is rich in Triacontanol. It's in the wax on the surface of the leaves. Which is why it's in beeswax. An alfalfa brew/tea wont have Triacontanol. The soil makes it available but it takes a long time. Triacontanol is good stuff but too much becoming available late in bloom can cause foxtailing.

There are many sources for organic soil inputs. Mother nature is the best source. Seasonal forage from your backyard or a forest is a good source. Seasonal forage makes for a healthy soil...imho.

I dont mean to be an ass about this. Just trying to elaborate and add my two cents. I think everyone's opinion is valuable. We all learn together which makes for a good conversation.
 
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Gentlemancorpse

Cannabis Chaotician
Lol, some folks have it in for "organics". This was a fun read.

We all have our own twist on things. That's what's makes it fun and keeps it interesting.

In keeping it brass tacks. Here's what the dictionary has to say about organic.
  1. 1.
    relating to or derived from living matter.

    2.
    (of food or farming methods) produced or involving production without the use of chemical fertilizers, pesticides, or other artificial agents.
    "organic farming"
When it comes to soil in my mind organic is a living, natural cycle. The soil food web.

As brother @Gweedo's Growroom mentioned. In a natural environment the plants are communicating with the microbes in the rhizosphere. Plants trade chemical exudates with microbes for work trade...making certain nutrients available when needed. There is a chain of soil biology responsible for making these minerals available. When we start applying pre chelated nutrients to a natural organic system we bypass the soil food web.

The only way pre chelated nutrients are available to the plant is through direct contact with the roots. The rest sits in the soil unused. Increasing salinity, potentially and eventually building up to toxic levels causing more issues.

When we bypass the soil food web with salts the microbes shut down and stop doing work. Some microbes are killed on the spot and others will go dormant. It takes a long time for the micro heard to get back to functioning like it was before the salt feeding. Some microbes may never come back without being introduced from compost/ewc and/or extracts and tea applications.

There are some folks who get pretty tech about the balance between salt applications and adding microbes back to the system with compost/EWC extracts and teas. They are constantly taking slide samples and observing them under magnification, 400x or better. It can be done but that methodology doesn't fit into "organic". Imho.

I understand there is money involved and "organic" produce fetches a much higher price in the supermarkets. In defense of organic certification. My friend owns a certified organic garlic seed operation. He does most of the work himself. He works his ass off. It's 6 acres. Three, 2 acre plots. Garlic is pretty demanding on soil so it needs to be rotated to allow the soil to rest. He plants 2 acres a season. Then he rotates. Planting cover crops for two years on the plots in between garlic plantings. Then feeding the soil bagged amendments depending on the results of the soil tests before planting garlic again. He applys composts, teas and has a vermicompost pile going. If you've ever seen an organic farm vs a farm that depends on chemical fertilizers. You'll want to eat the organic produce. Besides one being heathier than the other. There is a major difference in flavor. Not to mention the care that goes into it.

However, OMRI allows the use of soft rock phosphate and azomite. Both are rich in heavy metals and should be left where they are...imo. SRP also contains radioactive chemicals...radium, thorium etc. Considering cannais is a bioaccumulator it easily absorbs these materials from the soil. They end up in the resin glands of our final product.

Peat bogs are an important natural environment to this planet and shouldn't be exploited. However we do exploit them. Im not defending the use of peat in agriculture. But agricultural demands on peat moss is at the bottom of the list. Peat moss is commercially harvested in north Europe to heat homes and businesses. In Malaysia peat bogs are being drained and/or burned to make more farm land. Alot of greenhouse gases are released from the draining, burning and harvesting of peat bogs. I'm guilty of using peat moss occasionally in my soil mixes...

Tariconal was mentioned above. I think Tariconal is a software program and Traconal is a medication. Maybe you meant triacontanol? Triacontanol is a plant hormone in the form of fatty alcohol that is insoluble in water. It needs to be processed to be isolated.

Solubility: Triacontanol is insoluble in water, difficult to dissolve in cold ethanol, benzene, soluble in chloroform, methylene chloride.
Solubility: Insoluble in water, Soluble in hot hydrocarbon, alcohol and chloroform

Alfalfa is rich in Triacontanol. It's in the wax on the surface of the leaves. Which is why it's in beeswax. An alfalfa brew/tea wont have Triacontanol. The soil makes it available but it takes a long time. Too much Triacontanol becoming available late in bloom can cause foxtailing.

There are many sources for organic soil inputs. Mother nature is the best source. Seasonal forage from your backyard or a forest is a good source. Seasonal forage makes for a healthy soil...imho.

I dont mean to be an ass about this. Just trying to elaborate and add my two cents. I think everyone's opinion is valuable. We all learn together.

I don't feel like your being an ass at all, I think we're mostly all on the same page here. Not sure if this was what you were referring too, but my comments about the cost of organic certification was in reference to that burden being put on the farmers. If we as a society truly cared about organic farming we would subsidize the certification process instead of leaving it to independent farmers who are often barely scraping by to pay for it themselves. I have friends with an "organic" pig farm and I actually only eat local, farm raised meat in general, but none of it is OMRI certified because all of these farmers margins are so thin none of them feel the cost of certification is worth it. As I mentioned, my issues are with the use of the word "organic" in regards to cannabis growing because it is used to mean so many different things. I'd prefer the term "all natural" or maybe a whole new term that had a more clearly defined meaning.

I have a similar rant about the word "chemical".... in cannabis growing and agriculture its so frequently used as a synonym for "not naturally occurring" or "synthetic" but the actual definition of chemical is "any substance comprised of matter"... so basically everything. Cow manure and superphosphate are both chemicals!
 

Kind024

In Bloom
I don't feel like your being an ass at all, I think we're mostly all on the same page here. Not sure if this was what you were referring too, but my comments about the cost of organic certification was in reference to that burden being put on the farmers. If we as a society truly cared about organic farming we would subsidize the certification process instead of leaving it to independent farmers who are often barely scraping by to pay for it themselves. I have friends with an "organic" pig farm and I actually only eat local, farm raised meat in general, but none of it is OMRI certified because all of these farmers margins are so thin none of them feel the cost of certification is worth it. As I mentioned, my issues are with the use of the word "organic" in regards to cannabis growing because it is used to mean so many different things. I'd prefer the term "all natural" or maybe a whole new term that had a more clearly defined meaning.

I have a similar rant about the word "chemical".... in cannabis growing and agriculture its so frequently used as a synonym for "not naturally occurring" or "synthetic" but the actual definition of chemical is "any substance comprised of matter"... so basically everything. Cow manure and superphosphate are both chemicals!
I agree 100% brother. Organic certification is a costly and time consuming process. It does make it hard for small businesses. If you cant grow your own than support your local farmer and community. That's where the change will be made. At the same time some folks cant get to a local producer and depend on the shelves of supermarkets. We can only do our best to support sustainably produced goods and source our food mindfully.

I dig your choice of words. Great posts!
 

Orion

In Bloom
Geeez you guys make me feel guilty...I just went back to straight Canadian Spaghnum peat and perlite with garden lime....along with just Dyna Gro. For my indoor flowers... Lol

But my wonderfull outdoor garden is completely organic and I have spent many years building my soil...@kind024 I do have much better results now that I rotate my garlic and other veggies around to different sections of my garden...I am always trying new things on my own.
I guess thats where "to each his own" comes from.
 

Orion

In Bloom
I know my original post was sounding like I don't care for organic farming, but I do...I'm just sick of all the dam scams running on this planet right now and it is wearing thin on my patience...yes I believe OMRI is nothing more than a scam along with Global warming scam which in reality has only 3 objectives...1) control of all mineral rights on the planet..2) Control of all the water rights on the planet and 3) control of all the food.
 

Gentlemancorpse

Cannabis Chaotician
Geeez you guys make me feel guilty...I just went back to straight Canadian Spaghnum peat

Don't feel too bad... as soon as I typed that I realized I just bought a bag of roots organics potting soil at a friend's recommendation and didn't read the ingredients first.... second ingredient is peat moss lol. I already uppotted a plant into it sooooo.... we're going with it! As @Kind024 said though agriculture definitely isn't the biggest threat to peat bogs across the world.
 

Orion

In Bloom
If your re using it indefinitely it's not so bad, it's the single use and toss people that are doing the major part of the damage imo
I use it for an average of 4 runs, then remove most of my large perlite and add the used peat to my garden, it helps my soil retain moisture so my water use remains low. My garden is 80 x 40 so I do use as much collected rain water as I can catch in my barrels along with the stuff I have to pay for.
 
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