Backcrossing to F1

[Rasterman]

I've researched breeding quite a bit of late, and one of the ways to lock in phenos is to backcross to the mother who has all of the features you want to lock in.

But if the mother is an F1 hybrid of two completely different strains, her children are supposed to be highly variable. Does that mean that back crossing to her would be a bad idea?

I've thought about it a lot and it seems like it wouldn't work so well but I really have no idea.

 

[Skunky Dunk Farms]

I would think it would bring alot of variables but the search would begin,,,,,, again.
I'm no breeder period but it sounds like kinda 2 steps forward one step back ?!?

 

[Rasterman]

Yeah that's what I was thinking, but was hoping someone had tried and would know for sure.

 

[Frimpong]

Yeah that's what I was thinking, but was hoping someone had tried and would know for sure.

Yeah if u like mom it's a great way to lock stuff in. For sure .

 

[Gentlemancorpse]

BXing an F1 works just fine. When you make a BX, you start by creating a new F1 using a cut from the intended BX strain as mother and then some other strain. Then you grow out that F1 and select a male to hit another cut from the same mother plant. Since your using clones, the progeny will all be 50% identical to the mother plant. So when you back cross the new F1 generation back to the mother, you'll be doubling down on the original strains genetics. Each BX generation will make the resulting progeny more like the mother plant your targeting and simultaneously more stable (in theory). Doesn't matter what filial generation the mother initially came from.

Here's a quick explanation from @Schwaggy P:

The first outcross will give you 50%original strain/50%new strain. The first backcrossing will then give you 75%original/25%new. The second backcross gives you 88%original/12%new, and the third BX (cube) gives you 94%original/6%new. Notice that the contribution of the new strain is halved at every new backcrossed generation

And a post he made on selecting males that has some good info on BXing:

Post in thread 'Schwaggy P's Random Stuff' Schwaggy P's Random Stuff

Also, I keep mentioning the mother plant, but you can BX for a male plant as well

 

[thesunnyvalekid]

BXing an F1 works just fine. When you make a BX, you start by creating a new F1 using a cut from the intended BX strain as mother and then some other strain. Then you grow out that F1 and select a male to hit another cut from the same mother plant. Since your using clones, the progeny will all be 50% identical to the mother plant. So when you back cross the new F1 generation back to the mother, you'll be doubling down on the original strains genetics. Each BX generation will make the resulting progeny more like the mother plant your targeting and simultaneously more stable (in theory). Doesn't matter what filial generation the mother initially came from.

Here's a quick explanation from @Schwaggy P:



And a post he made on selecting males that has some good info on BXing:

Post in thread 'Schwaggy P's Random Stuff' Schwaggy P's Random Stuff

Also, I keep mentioning the mother plant, but you can BX for a male plant as well

Nice info there G.

 

[Rasterman]

BXing an F1 works just fine. When you make a BX, you start by creating a new F1 using a cut from the intended BX strain as mother and then some other strain. Then you grow out that F1 and select a male to hit another cut from the same mother plant. Since your using clones, the progeny will all be 50% identical to the mother plant. So when you back cross the new F1 generation back to the mother, you'll be doubling down on the original strains genetics. Each BX generation will make the resulting progeny more like the mother plant your targeting and simultaneously more stable (in theory). Doesn't matter what filial generation the mother initially came from.

Here's a quick explanation from @Schwaggy P:



And a post he made on selecting males that has some good info on BXing:

Post in thread 'Schwaggy P's Random Stuff' Schwaggy P's Random Stuff

Also, I keep mentioning the mother plant, but you can BX for a male plant as well

Great answer and references, thanks!

 

[MtRainDog]

But if the mother is an F1 hybrid of two completely different strains, her children are supposed to be highly variable. Does that mean that back crossing to her would be a bad idea?

A true F1 hybrid from two "true-breeding" parents should produce predictable offspring, with a limited number of generalized phenotypes. The F2 generation will be the "highly variable" generation.

Edit: I read that wrong I think. You're asking if you will get poly-hybrid offspring by breeding an F1 to (some other strain). You should see less variety in your bx1 than you would by making F2's

 

[Rasterman]

A true F1 hybrid from two "true-breeding" parents should produce predictable offspring, with a limited number of generalized phenotypes. The F2 generation will be the "highly variable" generation.

Edit: I read that wrong I think. You're asking if you will get poly-hybrid offspring by breeding an F1 to (some other strain). You should see less variety in your bx1 than you would by making F2's

I have a cross between two different IBLs. I was wondering if an F2 or F3 (or F/n/) would be a good candidate for BXing back to the F1 mother, actually. In the case that the grandkid was what I was looking for, similar to the F1 and I wanted to lock that in.

It's just a thought experiment anyway - it only matters if the few F1s I have include a unicorn.

 

[MtRainDog]

I have a cross between two different IBLs. I was wondering if an F2 or F3 (or F/n/) would be a good candidate for BXing back to the F1 mother, actually. In the case that the grandkid was what I was looking for, similar to the F1 and I wanted to lock that in.

It's just a thought experiment anyway - it only matters if the few F1s I have include a unicorn.

Gotcha. Then I think using one of your F2 males would be the way to go since you'll be back crossing to the same F1 mom

 

[Rasterman]

Gotcha. Then I think using one of your F2 males would be the way to go since you'll be back crossing to the same F1 mom

Cool - thanks for the advice!

 

[Gentlemancorpse]

I have a cross between two different IBLs. I was wondering if an F2 or F3 (or F/n/) would be a good candidate for BXing back to the F1 mother, actually. In the case that the grandkid was what I was looking for, similar to the F1 and I wanted to lock that in.

It's just a thought experiment anyway - it only matters if the few F1s I have include a unicorn.

So I'm a little confused (possibly because I'm more than a little high) and just want to make sure I'm following along...

You took two IBLs (IBLM and IBLF for my purposes, with the letters suggesting the sex of each parent) and made an F1. Are you trying to backcross to IBLF or did you select a new mom from within that F1 generation that you want to BX for (let's call her F1F)?

Cause if you want to BX for IBLF, you would take a male from the F1, and use it to pollinate the IBLF itself (mostly likely as a clone). Then you would take the progeny from that (your IBLF BX1) and hunt a male, and use it to pollinate IBLF again, whose progeny would then be your IBLF BX2. You would not want to use an F2 or F3 to start your BX, because your male would likely be less than 50% genetically identical too IBLF.

If you want to BX for F1F you'd need to make a new generation by pollinating F1F with another male. You could make an F2 or it could be a whole new F1 using a male from another strain entirely, that you would then select a male from and use that new male to pollinate F1F, making F1F BX1. But then to continue back crossing, you wouldn't make an F3, you'd hunt a male from F1F BX1 and use it to pollinate F1F again, making F1F BX2 and so on and so forth

If you want to keep taking single specimen siblings from inbred lines and crossing them to each other to isolate particular traits of a certain parent that's a Recombinant Inbred Line (RIL) I believe (though I'm happy to be corrected, I've never really looked into that one much). It's not a BX.

A BX uses one parent repeatedly through each generation (the exact parent) while a RIL uses different parents for each generation but always sibling and always from a subsequent filial generation.

I really hope that's not just a bowl of word soup lol. This Hippy Slayer and Corpse Paint salad got me all kinds of high.

 

[Brokehoe]

@Gentlemancorpse be like

dropping all that

 

[Rasterman]

So I'm a little confused (possibly because I'm more than a little high) and just want to make sure I'm following along...

You took two IBLs (IBLM and IBLF for my purposes, with the letters suggesting the sex of each parent) and made an F1. Are you trying to backcross to IBLF or did you select a new mom from within that F1 generation that you want to BX for (let's call her F1F)?

Cause if you want to BX for IBLF, you would take a male from the F1, and use it to pollinate the IBLF itself (mostly likely as a clone). Then you would take the progeny from that (your IBLF BX1) and hunt a male, and use it to pollinate IBLF again, whose progeny would then be your IBLF BX2. You would not want to use an F2 or F3 to start your BX, because your male would likely be less than 50% genetically identical too IBLF.

If you want to BX for F1F you'd need to make a new generation by pollinating F1F with another male. You could make an F2 or it could be a whole new F1 using a male from another strain entirely, that you would then select a male from and use that new male to pollinate F1F, making F1F BX1. But then to continue back crossing, you wouldn't make an F3, you'd hunt a male from F1F BX1 and use it to pollinate F1F again, making F1F BX2 and so on and so forth

If you want to keep taking single specimen siblings from inbred lines and crossing them to each other to isolate particular traits of a certain parent that's a Recombinant Inbred Line (RIL) I believe (though I'm happy to be corrected, I've never really looked into that one much). It's not a BX.

A BX uses one parent repeatedly through each generation (the exact parent) while a RIL uses different parents for each generation but always sibling and always from a subsequent filial generation.

I really hope that's not just a bowl of word soup lol. This Hippy Slayer and Corpse Paint salad got me all kinds of high.

It is a big bowl of alphabet soup, but it makes sense for the most part. I'll study it until I completely understand it, but it looks like it is the solution!

I doubt I'll have the need this go around, given that I'm looking at the first F1 female - odds are against me but I'm still optimistic.

Thanks for clearing that up (well, mostly)! Not bad for being a little high...