I'd like to talk about using far red during flowering.

Saro01

In Bloom
Hey everyone, basically as the title suggests, I'm looking to talk to folks who are either currently or previously running far red light, supplemental, for phytochrome manipulation. I guess my main questions are, how long are you running them? How intense? When did you begin the EOD-FR? Do you also utilize BOD-B as well? I have more than enough supplemental far red and deep red for the 4x4 I'm going to experiment in, im just ready to use them. I have a basic understanding of what's involved, what far red does to the plant etc. But im having trouble finding out, the time frame involved and how intense. I hope someone out there is running this type of thing. As I don't mind experiments, just rarely in a position to have them go "totally" wrong. Thanks in advance for any help on this. You all are great bunch of people, I really enjoy what I've experienced on Ph so far.
 

Saro01

In Bloom
Ok, cool, so I sparked some interest at least. It seems to me, from all of the reading I've done. That far red, is best used at about 15 minutes before lights out and then run for about 15 after lights out. At that point you should be able to increase your lights on time, or continue your 12/12 or 11/13 as i usually do, and it should speed up flowering process. So I guess another question I have is what seems better, extending lights on or faster ripening? I am going to go out on a limb here and say that you should most definitely utilize this technique at the start of flowering rather than coming in halfway or something. I'm sure you could, but "utilize" I would think from start. Also curious about BOD-B (beginning of day- blue) as that is supposed to do the opposite, as in wake them up faster. Would love to know someone who has or is running this technique. It really doesn't seem as complicated or expensive as it appears really. Separate timer and supp light. Anyway, glad to have a few on board here and would love to hear what you guys think about the path I'm on. I really just want to utilize what's out there. As far red seems to be on a lot of builds lately and I'm not real sure it's being used either properly or effectively. Probably ocd, but this is my thing so I like to learn. Thanks everyone if you've made it this far in my rambling. You deserve a prize, although I spent all the prize money on these crazy supplemental lighting!!! Hahaha.
 

Jewels

Tilts at Tables
@Badmofo529 posted this earlier.
The presenter has more relevant credentials than any other I know.


although I spent all the prize money
"Light money" carries more inertia than any other purchase. Wether target timed, or omni-present, I believe it is wise to round out the spectrum game.
 

Saro01

In Bloom
@Badmofo529 posted this earlier.
The presenter has more relevant credentials than any other I know.



"Light money" carries more inertia than any other purchase. Wether target timed, or omni-present, I believe it is wise to round out the spectrum game.
Thank you.
 

Saro01

In Bloom
@Badmofo529 posted this earlier.
The presenter has more relevant credentials than any other I know.



"Light money" carries more inertia than any other purchase. Wether target timed, or omni-present, I believe it is wise to round out the spectrum game.
Im very familiar with Bruce and apogee. Great link though, thank you.
 

spyralout

🌱🌿🌲🔥💨
Staff member
I am running far red initiator pucks as well as deep red LED strips and LED UV, all from Rapid LED, along with some custom LED strips made in Canada. Along with that, I have a single 315W CMH Philips 3100k bare bulb for that "special night light magic effect" that I haven't been able to explain, but every time I run CMH the buds near them have been rock hard and frostier.

Since I don't have a controller, and it's the first time I've run these, the deep red and UV are on the entire time, all the way from start of veg. I have noticed some significant stretching, but it could be because of the strains I'm running (oldskool Sour Diesel and Green Crack, both longer running Sativas). Had I not supercropped, they would've blown through the top of my 8' tent at week 3 of flower. This is with a 3 week veg in UC RDWC hydro, so take that into consideration - the growth is extremely explosive in this system.

Far red initiator pucks - I have 2, in a 5x5. I run them 17 min. Starts 2 min before lights out, and stays on for 15 min after lights out. 13/11. Sour D is usually a 70+ day strain, being a Sativa. I am at day 65 and I think I might have been done a few days ago. But I am letting them go a bit longer just for the hell of it. I don't know if they're truly done, I haven't gotten the motivation to scope them. But they sure as hell look done. I think if utilized properly (controller, timer, timing, etc) they have the potential to shave off at least a week of flowering time. This is HUGE especially if you double up by running hydro. It has the potential to go from seed to harvest in less than 11 weeks for long flowering strains. Consider if you go 12/12 or 13/11 from start, you could be harvesting in less than 8 weeks if this proves true. Have something on deck, and you could be harvesting 6x a year.
 

Saro01

In Bloom
I am running far red initiator pucks as well as deep red LED strips and LED UV, all from Rapid LED, along with some custom LED strips made in Canada. Along with that, I have a single 315W CMH Philips 3100k bare bulb for that "special night light magic effect" that I haven't been able to explain, but every time I run CMH the buds near them have been rock hard and frostier.

Since I don't have a controller, and it's the first time I've run these, the deep red and UV are on the entire time, all the way from start of veg. I have noticed some significant stretching, but it could be because of the strains I'm running (oldskool Sour Diesel and Green Crack, both longer running Sativas). Had I not supercropped, they would've blown through the top of my 8' tent at week 3 of flower. This is with a 3 week veg in UC RDWC hydro, so take that into consideration - the growth is extremely explosive in this system.

Far red initiator pucks - I have 2, in a 5x5. I run them 17 min. Starts 2 min before lights out, and stays on for 15 min after lights out. 13/11. Sour D is usually a 70+ day strain, being a Sativa. I am at day 65 and I think I might have been done a few days ago. But I am letting them go a bit longer just for the hell of it. I don't know if they're truly done, I haven't gotten the motivation to scope them. But they sure as hell look done. I think if utilized properly (controller, timer, timing, etc) they have the potential to shave off at least a week of flowering time. This is HUGE especially if you double up by running hydro. It has the potential to go from seed to harvest in less than 11 weeks for long flowering strains. Consider if you go 12/12 or 13/11 from start, you could be harvesting in less than 8 weeks if this proves true. Have something on deck, and you could be harvesting 6x a year.
Just a thought on that cmh thing, heavy blue spectrum there, that definitely assists in a dense flower. Also a bit of uv in that spectrum as well, that "should" aid in trichome production. That would be my guess on that situation. I'm glad you're running the far reds that way. That's what I am asking for, exactly. I have a good place to start, and I understand the process (mostly) I guess what I'm looking for is those that are currently or have in the past, run them, and how. So thank you for your time on that reply. Interesting that you do the short time while lights on. Makes sense to me, a d honestly I felt questions with the 10-15 pre lights out addition of far red. Also, thank you for the report on the results too. That's what I'm figuring over an 8-9 weeker being DONE by that 8th doing this. Thanks again. Good luck, and keep killing it my friend.
 

Saro01

In Bloom
Still picking this over.
Is it possible that long wave radiation is of more benefit to an equatorial sativa ? , as opposed to a traditional y blue dwelling auto ?
Im not sure "more" beneficial, as they tend to stretch quite a bit by their genetics. I would think the opposite would be true for sativa, blue would then aid in a stocky more supportive frame, also aid in pushing nodes a bit closer. But then, im imagining this in my space, where there is height restrictions. Also I don't run a lot of supplemental lighting for deeper canopy penetration. That's coming down the pipe though. Hahaha. If I'm understanding your thoughts correctly.
 

Jewels

Tilts at Tables
Yes, I agree that 'bluer' light will shorten internoding.

I was speculating on mimicking the natural biome of the native local.

Reasoning that that ruderalis developed in an environment where blue light is abundant, takes a few hours for the sun to come up. Twilight, at the end of the day, lags on forever.
Conversely equatorial Sativas do the 12 12 thing under non oblique rays. Just wondering if Sativas are 'programmed' to more readily utilize longer photons.
Just spit balling, nothing really to add.

For myself, being curious, I divided my 8 foot room with blu on the right, and red on the left. Haven't been running it that way long enough to say much intelligent about it.

I will offer this.
I believe inadequate intensity leads to stretching. I find the tallest plants are out searching for light.
Curious however to see this little scenario developing.
Question.
Is light intensity or spectrum, more effective at reducing internode space ?

I am so cheap, I actually recycled a doodle !
20200805_113830.jpg
The scene is correct. The units are not.
What we are looking at is accurate to my current crop.

The most intense light is is red, and situated on the left.
The blue light , on the right, is farther away and less intense.
I am seeing longer internode spacing under red light; even under greater intensity.
At the moment, 500 blue is shorter than 700 ppfd of red.

Pontificating,,, one could use even inadequate blu light, for better results, in a confined space.
Furthermore, a tiny source of blu light , in a predominantly red room, would hit above its' class.


Since I am rambling consider this,,,
I have seen photo's of T12 , finishers, UV, and full spectrum tubes mounted flush on high intensity fixtures.
Pre-acknowledging that I just argued this in the opposite direction - still - give your head a shake , man.
An HPS bulb will out hit a tube from three feet away.
Meaning,,, I could mash a plant into a florescent tube and still not achieve the same intensity as an HID sitting 36 inches away.
The most disappointing part of owning an Apogge Quantum sensor, is the realization of how fast light drops off.
I humbly suggest; if you folks are mussing about with these experiments: put it right up in their faces. Much of this fringe stuff is underpowered. Nothing seems to be as advertised. You buy into an idea, and they sell you a toy.
 

jaguarlax

Tactical Gardener
Staff member
Moderator
Yes, I agree that 'bluer' light will shorten internoding.

I was speculating on mimicking the natural biome of the native local.

Reasoning that that ruderalis developed in an environment where blue light is abundant, takes a few hours for the sun to come up. Twilight, at the end of the day, lags on forever.
Conversely equatorial Sativas do the 12 12 thing under non oblique rays. Just wondering if Sativas are 'programmed' to more readily utilize longer photons.
Just spit balling, nothing really to add.

For myself, being curious, I divided my 8 foot room with blu on the right, and red on the left. Haven't been running it that way long enough to say much intelligent about it.

I will offer this.
I believe inadequate intensity leads to stretching. I find the tallest plants are out searching for light.
Curious however to see this little scenario developing.
Question.
Is light intensity or spectrum, more effective at reducing internode space ?

I am so cheap, I actually recycled a doodle !
View attachment 19374
The scene is correct. The units are not.
What we are looking at is accurate to my current crop.

The most intense light is is red, and situated on the left.
The blue light , on the right, is farther away and less intense.
I am seeing longer internode spacing under red light; even under greater intensity.
At the moment, 500 blue is shorter than 700 ppfd of red.

Pontificating,,, one could use even inadequate blu light, for better results, in a confined space.
Furthermore, a tiny source of blu light , in a predominantly red room, would hit above its' class.


Since I am rambling consider this,,,
I have seen photo's of T12 , finishers, UV, and full spectrum tubes mounted flush on high intensity fixtures.
Pre-acknowledging that I just argued this in the opposite direction - still - give your head a shake , man.
An HPS bulb will out hit a tube from three feet away.
Meaning,,, I could mash a plant into a florescent tube and still not achieve the same intensity as an HID sitting 36 inches away.
The most disappointing part of owning an Apogge Quantum sensor, is the realization of how fast light drops off.
I humbly suggest; if you folks are mussing about with these experiments: put it right up in their faces. Much of this fringe stuff is underpowered. Nothing seems to be as advertised. You buy into an idea, and they sell you a toy.
You really have my wheels turning here @Jewels... So I built my veg lights... with lots of blue... 8 SunBoards: 2 Blue Boosters 2x 3500k 4x 6500k... I wonder what it would look like if say, I flowered a couple autos under these, and then a couple more under my qbs...in the flower tent...
 

Jewels

Tilts at Tables
Moderation, in all things.

Mercury Vapor allowed us to grow indoors.
Hps more better
Mh more better
Uv, far-reds, actinic, tri-phosphors', narrow band LED,,,
They all help to 'round out what the sun freely gives.

A benefit has been identified, how can it be most effectively applied ?
 

SSGrower

👨‍🔬
Yes, I agree that 'bluer' light will shorten internoding.

I was speculating on mimicking the natural biome of the native local.

Reasoning that that ruderalis developed in an environment where blue light is abundant, takes a few hours for the sun to come up. Twilight, at the end of the day, lags on forever.
Conversely equatorial Sativas do the 12 12 thing under non oblique rays. Just wondering if Sativas are 'programmed' to more readily utilize longer photons.
Just spit balling, nothing really to add.

For myself, being curious, I divided my 8 foot room with blu on the right, and red on the left. Haven't been running it that way long enough to say much intelligent about it.

I will offer this.
I believe inadequate intensity leads to stretching. I find the tallest plants are out searching for light.
Curious however to see this little scenario developing.
Question.
Is light intensity or spectrum, more effective at reducing internode space ?

I am so cheap, I actually recycled a doodle !
View attachment 19374
The scene is correct. The units are not.
What we are looking at is accurate to my current crop.

The most intense light is is red, and situated on the left.
The blue light , on the right, is farther away and less intense.
I am seeing longer internode spacing under red light; even under greater intensity.
At the moment, 500 blue is shorter than 700 ppfd of red.

Pontificating,,, one could use even inadequate blu light, for better results, in a confined space.
Furthermore, a tiny source of blu light , in a predominantly red room, would hit above its' class.


Since I am rambling consider this,,,
I have seen photo's of T12 , finishers, UV, and full spectrum tubes mounted flush on high intensity fixtures.
Pre-acknowledging that I just argued this in the opposite direction - still - give your head a shake , man.
An HPS bulb will out hit a tube from three feet away.
Meaning,,, I could mash a plant into a florescent tube and still not achieve the same intensity as an HID sitting 36 inches away.
The most disappointing part of owning an Apogge Quantum sensor, is the realization of how fast light drops off.
I humbly suggest; if you folks are mussing about with these experiments: put it right up in their faces. Much of this fringe stuff is underpowered. Nothing seems to be as advertised. You buy into an idea, and they sell you a toy.
Equatorial landrace sativas will perenialize, they veg and flower at the same time.

Lamps are difficult to match up with led ime. Hanging distance being key factor.

UV and blue will both reduce node spacing and increase lst.

Red will increase node spacing and imo is the easiest to use for bod/eod treatments blue and uv have too much energy, but my strategy is to leave the triggers on all day. Nature dosen't shut them of why should I. Also both pR and pFR receptors have a response to uv light. Watch the sky whats the last color you see? What is the firs one in the morning? The physisic of refraction does not change between sunrise and sunset.

Finally.... the economics of these things dosen't pan out for the average user.
 

Jewels

Tilts at Tables
Dr. Irv Bromberg
"
Civil twilight ends after sunset or begins before sunrise when the solar depression angle is = solar zenith angle 96° = solar elevation angle -6°. There is enough light during civil twilight for most outdoor activities, and only the brightest planets and stars are visible. When the solar depression angle is greater than 6° artificial lighting is required for reading and for most outdoor activities. The end of civil twilight after sunset or the beginning of civil twilight before sunrise are considered the beginning or end of night for aviation purposes, respectively.

Nautical twilight ends after sunset or begins before sunrise when the solar depression angle is 12° = solar zenith angle 102° = solar elevation angle -12°. At sea during nautical twilight the horizon is visible as a line separating the sky from the water. When the solar depression angle is greater than 12° the sky is too dark to distinguish from the water at the horizon.

Astronomical twilight ends after sunset or begins before sunrise when the solar depression angle is 18° = solar zenith angle 108° = solar elevation angle -18°. During astronomical twilight it is not dark enough to see dim stars, galaxies, or nebulae, even with a good telescope. When the solar depression angle is greater than 18° the sky is as dark as it can ever get (depending on the lunar location and phase), atmospheric sunlight scatter is minimal, and dim stars, galaxies, and nebulae are telescopically detectable.

Unfortunately, during the most pleasant summer months for star gazing in my home country of Canada (June and July) astronomical twilight continues for most or all of the night time, therefore chilly autumn nights are best for star gazing in Canada. It so happens that the 49th parallel that separates western Canada from the USA corresponds very closely to the latitude north of which astronomical twilight continues all night near the summer solstice (June 10th through July 1st, that is ±10 days from the solstice at 49° north latitude).

At high latitudes during the summer time astronomical twilight after sunset can continue into astronomical twilight before sunrise, if the solar depression angle is less than 18° at local apparent midnight. Likewise, at higher latitudes during the summer time the evening nautical twilight can continue into the morning nautical twilight if the solar depression angle is less than 12° at local apparent midnight. At even higher latitudes during the summer time the evening civil twilight can continue into the morning civil twilight if the solar depression angle is less than 6° at local apparent midnight. Of course, at even higher latitudes there won't be any twilight on dates when any part of the solar disk remains above the horizon at local apparent midnight. "

Civil, nautical, or astromonic ? Which will plants flower under ?
Seems Autos developed a way to flower under continuous blue light.
I wonder if they would react differently to reds.
 
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