pH Preservation Project Initial Questions Discussed.

[Buck5050]

@Skunky Dunk Farms asked:

So on these limited packs, we do want to micro open pollinate correct?
Albeit only branches but multiple.10 plants.2 males.8 females.16 crosses?

My initial intent will be to let all females and all males pollinated each other fully. Just let them do their thing naturally creating as many genetic possibilities captured as possible with the highest amount of seeds I can within my grow space.

So said person who had pack of landrace strain and successfully made 16 crosses and who now has about a half pound of seed. If said person had say a 10x10 outside area for example.
Could said person in say mid July heavily seed this area and open pollinate these 16 crosses and have a substantial variation in collected seed?

This is where we would move from preservation to hybridizing.

And does more males in the equation make this worse or better?

Better initially. Once you move to hybridization fewer males are preferred.

Am i asking these questions in the right place?
Im kinda buzzed.

I have other questions myself and wanted to get the ball rolling to see what you and everyone else have on ya minds.


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These are my thoughts on some of the first few questions. Nothing is set in stone so the more input we can gather the better decisions will make together.

 

[Skunky Dunk Farms]

Ive grown since the early 70's, but still a beginner!
Lets learn!

 

[Buck5050]

My initial intent will be to let all females and all males pollinated each other fully. Just let them do their thing naturally creating as many genetic possibilities captured as possible

Even though I believe this is a solid approach, it does have me thinking a bit. I've heard discussions about culling the faster males to allow some of the slower ones a chance to pollinate. Opening up genetic lines that nature would suppress naturally.

But, I know that females also develope at their own pace also which should have some sort of balance to offset this phenomenon.

This still could lead to more beans on whole being sired by one male than others.

 

[Skunky Dunk Farms]

If they are left to there own devices in a population you should get a bit of everyrhing they have to offer.
Then the search begins.

 

[Jewels]

Good stuff.
I would venture that a larger sample size would contain more information ,whereby not leaving potential information on the table, or throwing it out with the bathwater.

It does raise the question of culling. Would you want to include an example that only nodes every 18 inches? What about a non-photo plant ?
Certainly autoflowering would be an expression of some land race strains,, is it something you would pollinate ?

Every grower is unique. It is the mission statement that keeps everyone working towards a common goal.

 

[Skunky Dunk Farms]

My main focus is if i only have 11 seeds of a strain, only 11, what can be done to preserve "this" line.

 

[Deebs]

@Skunky Dunk Farms asked:

So on these limited packs, we do want to micro open pollinate correct?
Albeit only branches but multiple.10 plants.2 males.8 females.16 crosses?

My initial intent will be to let all females and all males pollinated each other fully. Just let them do their thing naturally creating as many genetic possibilities captured as possible with the highest amount of seeds I can within my grow space.

So said person who had pack of landrace strain and successfully made 16 crosses and who now has about a half pound of seed. If said person had say a 10x10 outside area for example.
Could said person in say mid July heavily seed this area and open pollinate these 16 crosses and have a substantial variation in collected seed?

This is where we would move from preservation to hybridizing.

And does more males in the equation make this worse or better?

Better initially. Once you move to hybridization fewer males are preferred.

Am i asking these questions in the right place?
Im kinda buzzed.

I have other questions myself and wanted to get the ball rolling to see what you and everyone else have on ya minds.


-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

These are my thoughts on some of the first few questions. Nothing is set in stone so the more input we can gather the better decisions will make together.

Personally I would approach this similar. I would let as much pollinate as possible to increase the genetic diversity initially.

I tend to agree on the hybridizing part. This is were you start selecting, and isolating traits in my point of view.

I think we should ask as many questions as we have on our minds. Continuously. The bad questions are the ones not asked.
Loving the thought on this already, and its just starting. Don't be afraid to ask questions, anyone.

Would love to see some feedback from our breeders also on these topics ? @Schwaggy P @HydroRed @Phylex @SCJedi @J. James ? and many others I know dabble but did not mention.

Even though I believe this is a solid approach, it does have me thinking a bit. I've heard discussions about culling the faster males to allow some of the slower ones a chance to pollinate. Opening up genetic lines that nature would suppress naturally.

But, I know that females also develop at their own pace also which should have some sort of balance to offset this phenomenon.

This still could lead to more beans on whole being sired by one male than others.

This was a little more intensive but something done in that past. We popped 20 beans. 11 females, 9 males. Took cuts of the females. Separated the males. collected pollen from all the males, and mixed it together, using that as a base for pollination of all females/cuts. Our intent was to provide genetics diversity as evenly as possible across the females. Cant say it was the best method, but gave a good selection of genetics for isolation I feel. Though unproven, it made sense to me botanically. Something to think about for sure, as there are many methods to go about this.

If they are left to there own devices in a population you should get a bit of everything they have to offer.
Then the search begins.

Absolutely on the money in my opinion

Good stuff.
I would venture that a larger sample size would contain more information ,whereby not leaving potential information on the table, or throwing it out with the bathwater.

It does raise the question of culling. Would you want to include an example that only nodes every 18 inches? What about a non-photo plant ?
Certainly autoflowering would be an expression of some land race strains,, is it something you would pollinate ?

Every grower is unique. It is the mission statement that keeps everyone working towards a common goal.

Good questions Jewels. Internodal spacing is based on a few different items right? Hormones, light intensity (lack of i think), crowding, zinc if I recall, and a few other things. The one plant might hold a genetic component the others don't, or just be an environmental conditions.

My main focus is if i only have 11 seeds of a strain, only 11, what can be done to preserve "this" line.

Mainly it will preserve (create seed) the genetics relevant to those 11 seeds. One thought I was having, what if you have the same strain from multiple vendors. I wonder if that increases the genetic diversity further. So I do agree this will be a limited selection of what I feel is truly possible from the strain.

 

[Skunky Dunk Farms]

The thought of mixing breeders "like"genetics crossed my mind too but initially wont we want to retain our first choice by multiplication and then do a cross with mix ya end up with?

 

[Phylex]

I would let as much pollinate as possible to increase the genetic diversity initially.

It all depends on the intent of the project. Is it genetic preservation or selective preservation. It's my understanding that this project is for genetic preservation. In which case continual open pollinations would accomplish this. Thus continually creating seed stock and preserving the genetics. If it's selective pollination, the genetic pool is going to be significantly narrowed based on the selection by one individual.

For the intent of this project, I'd assume the goal is genetic preservation first and foremost, building seed stock. Once this project begins to mature, and these preserved genetics begin to accumulate, seeds from these preserved lines can be given to pH members and they could then do as they wish. Such as selective breeding if they choose to do so.

 

[Deebs]

It all depends on the intent of the project. Is it genetic preservation or selective preservation. It's my understanding that this project is for genetic preservation. In which case continual open pollinations would accomplish this. Thus continually creating seed stock and preserving the genetics. If it's selective pollination, the genetic pool is going to be significantly narrowed based on the selection by one individual.

For the intent of this project, I'd assume the goal is genetic preservation first and foremost, building seed stock. Once this project begins to mature, and these preserved genetics begin to accumulate, seeds from these preserved lines can be given to pH members and they could then do as they wish. Such as selective breeding if they choose to do so.

Genetic Preservation is definitely the intent. Thanks Phylex, you summed it up quite well!

 

[Skunky Dunk Farms]

It all depends on the intent of the project. Is it genetic preservation or selective preservation. It's my understanding that this project is for genetic preservation. In which case continual open pollinations would accomplish this. Thus continually creating seed stock and preserving the genetics. If it's selective pollination, the genetic pool is going to be significantly narrowed based on the selection by one individual.

For the intent of this project, I'd assume the goal is genetic preservation first and foremost, building seed stock. Once this project begins to mature, and these preserved genetics begin to accumulate, seeds from these preserved lines can be given to pH members and they could then do as they wish. Such as selective breeding if they choose to do so.

Genetic Preservation is definitely the intent. Thanks Phylex, you summed it up quite well!

Yes indeed.

 

[jaguarlax]

It all depends on the intent of the project. Is it genetic preservation or selective preservation. It's my understanding that this project is for genetic preservation. In which case continual open pollinations would accomplish this. Thus continually creating seed stock and preserving the genetics. If it's selective pollination, the genetic pool is going to be significantly narrowed based on the selection by one individual.

For the intent of this project, I'd assume the goal is genetic preservation first and foremost, building seed stock. Once this project begins to mature, and these preserved genetics begin to accumulate, seeds from these preserved lines can be given to pH members and they could then do as they wish. Such as selective breeding if they choose to do so.

Well Said, I think its best to create as much seed stock as possible, this way there is enough quantity to share with other members with the hope they can become building blocks for future breeding projects.

 

[Skunky Dunk Farms]

Well Said, I think its best to create as much seed stock as possible, this way there is enough quantity to share with other members with the hope they can become building blocks for future breeding projects.

And yes!
Even us, the ones building stock, won't get to see all the possibilities.
Some really recessive trait may turn out to be a treasure down the road.

 

[Buck5050]

This was a little more intensive but something done in that past. We popped 20 beans. 11 females, 9 males. Took cuts of the females. Separated the males. collected pollen from all the males, and mixed it together, using that as a base for pollination of all females/cuts.

That is an amazing endeavor. Having to collect from multiple active males at the same time would be a task. For my facilities, it's one at a time so I can spray down and clear out stray pollen.

Since the wheels are turning, I think I would have to clone out everything and do an initial pollen collection run and do what @Skunky Dunk Farms initially suggested by hitting every female with every male with some branch breeding techniques. In the end, you can mix the seeds together and end up with similar results like mixing pollen. The advantage of this is that you already have segregation from the sires. This is more of a breeding approach than preservation IMO. But, Does that advantage outweigh the time and effort?

I'd assume the goal is genetic preservation first and foremost, building seed stock.

I think its best to create as much seed stock as possible,

How much is enough to hold in stock? Suggestions?

On a personal level, I hold 100 seeds of a strain if I want to go back in and find the mother. I do have jars of 500s that I do try and share and most likely will never go through unless I am planting acreage.

 

[Phylex]

How much is enough to hold in stock? Suggestions?

I'm not sure if this question is directed toward the preservation project or on a personal level. On a personal level, I'd say it's whatever the individual is comfortable with. When it comes to the preservation project, I can only try to interpret how I've come to understand the goals. @Deebs is spearheading the pH preservation project, so ultimately he'd be the best to clarify, but this is my understanding of it.

The pH Preservation Project is driven by two main purposes. The first purpose is to preserve old genetic lines. Landrace and Heirloom strains. The second purpose is pH community inspired. The best way to describe it is a "Community Garden." The initial intent is to build a massive seed stock (seed bank) of these Landrace and Heirloom strains, essentially for our pH community. Once the preservation portion is completed, these seeds will be available for pH members.

"How much is enough to hold in stock?" - Considering just one plant can produce hundreds to thousands of seeds respectively, the answer would be thousands of seeds. Whether that's five thousand, ten thousand, or more, that will be the comfort level of Deebs, or TBD as this project develops.

Why so many seeds?
It falls back on the goals and intent of the project. One is genetic preservation, yes. But ultimately this is community driven and inspired. While we'll only continue to grow as a community, we currently have over 400 members. This preservation project, and pH seed bank is focused at being not only developed by our community, but will be made available to our community. If there's a high demand from members wanting a particular cultivar, we'd need the seed stock available to share with everyone. Eventually seed stocks will run low, and another preservation run will need to be completed to 'restock' our pH bank for members.

As you can see, this is quite the undertaking. Which is why this project is focused as a "Community Garden." It's also why Deebs is offering this opportunity for members who have the knowledge, space, resources, time, and willingness to pioneer the early phases of this project. I'm certain the intent would be missed if someone steps forward willing to help, grows out some plants, chucks a little pollen, and returns a couple hundred seeds. All the while keeping the majority of seeds and or genetics in their own garden. The early pioneers are being trusted with these initial genetic offerings to uphold the goals of the project in preservation and understand this is for the community as a whole, not the individual. The last thing we'd want is for these genetics to disappear. For example, said member cannot deliver on an open pollination, said member "loses" the genetics to "issues" during the grow, or worse, said member disappears and is no longer active at pH.

The vision is great, but it isn't something Deebs couldn't do on his own with these genetics. There's strength in numbers and Deebs had the forward thinking to create a community inspired project for our community. Hats off to you sir.

The early pioneering isn't for everyone for a multitude of reasons. However, there are members here that can, and would be willing to help. We understand this is quite the undertaking and that's why it's 100% voluntary. The main things to be considered before volunteering is understanding the goals, and actually being able to meet said goals.

 

[Deebs]

Man, nail on the head @Phylex! This project is all for the community, by the community. Anyone that knows me a little, most likely understands I am a data guy (KPI/metrics) ...focusing on efficiency, and effectiveness. Since these runs are quite a bit of work, getting the biggest bang out of each preservation should be the intent. If done correctly, I think we could both preserve the line for pHenohunters to hunt, and for the member running preservation to get a % of their preservation to hunt (% depending on #?).

I am loving the open discussion already, and that is going to be a continuous journey. More to come

 

[Deebs]

Every grower is unique. It is the mission statement that keeps everyone working towards a common goal.

Well stated @Jewels !

 

[chiefer888]

Has anyone considered space buckets for flowering out males? A person could build a couple buckets out of a couple 5gallon pails and a couple 8.5 watt LEDs and isolate 1-2 males per unit. Thoughts?

 

[Deebs]

Has anyone considered space buckets for flowering out males? A person could build a couple buckets out of a couple 5gallon pails and a couple 8.5 watt LEDs and isolate 1-2 males per unit. Thoughts?

Interesting thought! I haven't thought of that personally, but have just written it down in the backlog!

 

[Deebs]

Also I will make mention, I am thinking of rewards for those being able to run the preservation for the community. No idea on what exactly, thoughts in progress. Feel free to chime in with any you all have.