Let's be more careful when making beans

[Lockedin]

I don't sell seeds. BUT would be upfront about concerns with anyone I gave seeds too.

I've given out my SK seeds out to a couple people who've asked - not from my herm-stock, from my original batch, one generation upstream.
I gave everyone the herm warning, and also the 11.5 / 12.5 schedule that seems to solve that issue.

 

[Manidoo]

There's a lot of Selfing that's been swept under the rug in a lot of the older lines, and more than most people know.! The thing is, everytime a plant with the herm traits selfed these genes are doubled up, or down depending on how you see this action unfold. When outcrossings take place these genes are doubled up again when taken to a instable line.

I think though truthfully we really don't know what we should about the diocios and mono diocios as well as the next in nature's sequence and onward. There's definitely a trinity within this and knowing your lines like your spouse and children really helps in the long run when it comes to even pollen chucking. Sadly most people are just tossing whatever it is that's hot with the next new new never really knowing either of the sides meshed be it fem or regular.

I believe due to the instant breeder thing and a really fucked up pools, that in the near future there's going to be a lot of things that will become nothing more than just a blur of memories due to instability and disease.

This is why I encourage others to breed for themselves, in short anyone who has the desire to do so can and should. The markets insane and the industry is booming, why make others wealthy when you can just do your own thing.

I really feel for the newcomers nowadays, surely they're advantages are abundant , but crappy genetics run amok and the newest equipment is all high performance. No wonder why so many newbies are getting struck out over and over in the game.

 

[BH]

Too Keep this short

Would you consider good pheno’s to evolve by letting anything fuck it’s own family ? This isn’t just cannabis that sees if you fuck your family members . There is abnormally higher % of issues

we got too many in same family fucking each other

 

[BH]

Should of added this but got busy lol

Difference Between Hermaphrodite and Intersex | Compare the Difference Between Similar Terms

Hermaphrodite vs Intersex The two terms have been used synonymously before the mid-years of the last century. However, hermaphrodite and intersex hav

www.differencebetween.com

 

[thenotsoesoteric]

I understand the convenience of stressing the plants with chemicals, but I don't buy into that one type of stress is more special than another. My opinion is that a female plant is only going to make one kind of pollen from being stressed and that it doesn't really matter how it was stressed. To refute that, you'll need to show me the different pollens a single plant makes due to which type of stress it received.
There's two kinds of hermies........either stressed or genetic. I'm saying the pollen is no different from a light stress or being chemically induced.

I feel you its all the same pollen, I'm just saying the genetic material is what is the issue. If a plant easily herms then it will pass those trait more readily regardless if it was from chemical reversal or from an accident.

So a 0lant that has passed stress tests and then is reversed should in theory not produce as much intersex in offspring as a plant that formed male parts from a stressor like light leak or whatnot.

But it would take more scientific experiments to verify for sure.

 

[Manidoo]

Too Keep this short

Would you consider good pheno’s to evolve by letting anything fuck it’s own family ? This isn’t just cannabis that sees if you fuck your family members . There is abnormally higher % of issues

we got too many in same family fucking each other

In relation to inbreeding, plants and animals have been doing this for eons untold and without inbreeding we wouldn't have the diversify of the fruit, vegetable, livestock as well as pets present today . There's a natural sequence and order though and the axioms of the western modern day culture is part of the problem not within just the weed scene. Take a look at the dog breeds of yesteryear, these pedigrees we're made skillfully by old school (old world) inbreeding and the dog shows and thier selection along with the new breeders is the bane of it all. Americans ruined just about every dog breed known to exist besides the most hybridized like the true American Pit Bull Terriers due to their sheer diverse genome.

If you follow the stallions blood lines your going to see they are all descendants of the same stock as well. Now humans do inbreed both presently and historically we know and repetively is where the DNA gets to be sour or tainted. But if you know the science, it's actually F22 where you're going to find a damaged unfixable genome.

Outcrossings happen naturally after the inbreeding takes place in nature due to the natural world and it's own default which ensures a homeostasis in each species or family as we like to order and classify our relations. Even the most natural bottlenecked people (Inuit) know that natural order and the sequence that ensures the wholes survival. Yet the western world is just beginning to look within what they tried to destroy.

Anyways it's not normal for people to inbreed we think with morals and instincts for some of , but it's what established those royal people and their own blood lines and the continuance of the dynasties and kingdoms and is still a facet for some cultures like the Amish. They are genetically screwed and it can't be fixed no matter what community they marry within. Just like a good amount of the modern cannabis.

Should of added this but got busy lol

Difference Between Hermaphrodite and Intersex | Compare the Difference Between Similar Terms

Hermaphrodite vs Intersex The two terms have been used synonymously before the mid-years of the last century. However, hermaphrodite and intersex hav

www.differencebetween.com

Awesome, but there's more to it yet! It's why I said that there's a natural trinity and possibly beyond lol

 

[Manidoo]

I feel you its all the same pollen, I'm just saying the genetic material is what is the issue. If a plant easily herms then it will pass those trait more readily regardless if it was from chemical reversal or from an accident.

So a 0lant that has passed stress tests and then is reversed should in theory not produce as much intersex in offspring as a plant that formed male parts from a stressor like light leak or whatnot.

But it would take more scientific experiments to verify for sure.

From what I have seen it's all the same under the scope! No different than when applied ?, I have never seen a difference either in anything produced by the late term anthers then the pollen induced by chem on the same plant.

 

[Gentlemancorpse]

From what I have seen it's all the same under the scope! No different than when applied ?, I have never seen a difference either in anything produced by the late term anthers then the pollen induced by chem on the same plant.

But not everything can be seen by the human eye! The difference would be in the DNA. The question is the basis for the entire study of epigenetics. Do phenotypic all changes change the DNA and in turn create a trait that can be passed on to the progeny?

See when a plant shows intersex traits naturally, whether through stress or simple genetics that genetic trigger was likely already encoded into its DNA, so it's more likely to pass that trait along to its offspring. When a plant is reversed using chemicals, that trait may not have existed previously. So the question is, did the chemical application permanently change the DNA of the donor plant? I genuinely don't know the answer, despite researching it in depth over the last several weeks. There's strong arguments and evidence to both sides.

I have half a mind to try and reveg the reversed Hippy Slayer just as an experiment to see if it would still produce male flowers after its flipped again.

 

[Manidoo]

But not everything can be seen by the human eye! The difference would be in the DNA. The question is the basis for the entire study of epigenetics. Do phenotypic all changes change the DNA and in turn create a trait that can be passed on to the progeny?

See when a plant shows intersex traits naturally, whether through stress or simple genetics that genetic trigger was likely already encoded into its DNA, so it's more likely to pass that trait along to its offspring. When a plant is reversed using chemicals, that trait may not have existed previously. So the question is, did the chemical application permanently change the DNA of the donor plant? I genuinely don't know the answer, despite researching it in depth over the last several weeks. There's strong arguments and evidence to both sides.

I have half a mind to try and reveg the reversed Hippy Slayer just as an experiment to see if it would still produce male flowers after its flipped again.

Exactly we are lightyears behind in scientifical studies, yet experience has a huge factor in the understanding/ innerstanding. I like to see things for myself playing out with different lines that all have what some would call intersex traits and others that throw just pollen minutley in a last ditch effort from the stress of not being pollinated. This was coined supposedly as the Soma method of femming. I have done this before I ever heard of him or the term its coined now. With this method I have never seen offspring carrying true herm traits though , no different then the occasional male flower development in the lower bracts. Took plenty of this too towards others and selfed a lot of plants in the course of study.

Some plants may be harder then others to self and the pollen count ofterntimes is very min like with the TK as example, but none of it has created a sess pool of herm no matter how much it took to make her produce pollen. Theres few people in the big league I actully trust for information in relation to this subject, but the foremost would be Nnpecta and hes probably selfed more of the elites then anyone else in the game at this point. In fact he doesnt believe in their even being a chance of an actual male plant being possible within the offspring of fem work. I have to agree from my own experience with those males being from pollen contamination.

In short the whole of the ordeal is a natural thing most people will never understand even with scopes and quantum analysis and more... EVERY single female plant that produces pollen one way or another has been stressed and theoretically it would all have damaged dna. I dunno about others but some of my favorite of plants can be a bit tempermental and i dont mind keeping them content as pets. They are of course best as pets then breeders but hey theres nothing wrong with seeing what they do as long as its not on someone else dollar and time..

Awesome thread everyone- I apppreciate an open format where all can learn and share from experience more then anything else.

 

[thenotsoesoteric]

But not everything can be seen by the human eye! The difference would be in the DNA. The question is the basis for the entire study of epigenetics. Do phenotypic all changes change the DNA and in turn create a trait that can be passed on to the progeny?

See when a plant shows intersex traits naturally, whether through stress or simple genetics that genetic trigger was likely already encoded into its DNA, so it's more likely to pass that trait along to its offspring. When a plant is reversed using chemicals, that trait may not have existed previously. So the question is, did the chemical application permanently change the DNA of the donor plant? I genuinely don't know the answer, despite researching it in depth over the last several weeks. There's strong arguments and evidence to both sides.

I have half a mind to try and reveg the reversed Hippy Slayer just as an experiment to see if it would still produce male flowers after its flipped again.

Much better said than what I wrote! But this is what I meant in my rambles of a post.

 

[Manidoo]

Last and foremost on my part - Everything domesticated except for the human being will return to its natural state (100% HOMEOSTASIS) if released into the wild due to epigenetics returning to the symbiosis of the natural world, not just boars from pigs type of scenario. They say all Cannabis returns to its natural state of being Hemp or say just ferral for the sake of making this easy to understand. With this said I dont care what cut or seed you toss into the natural order, leave it be and it will seed itself. Not every singe plant is gonna make the cut, but I gurantee you even the most stable of the modern day cuts and germplasm (seed stock) we collect will surely push pollen and ensure its own survival without the intervention of the human. Theres very very few plants that rely fully being dependent upon humans and the best example would be Tobacco, not the wild Rustica but all of the other Nicotinia plants can not seed out on their own due to humans breeding for thousands of years while hybridizing the common lines of todays modern tobacco varities .

 

[Willie]

But not everything can be seen by the human eye! The difference would be in the DNA. The question is the basis for the entire study of epigenetics. Do phenotypic all changes change the DNA and in turn create a trait that can be passed on to the progeny?

See when a plant shows intersex traits naturally, whether through stress or simple genetics that genetic trigger was likely already encoded into its DNA, so it's more likely to pass that trait along to its offspring. When a plant is reversed using chemicals, that trait may not have existed previously. So the question is, did the chemical application permanently change the DNA of the donor plant? I genuinely don't know the answer, despite researching it in depth over the last several weeks. There's strong arguments and evidence to both sides.

I have half a mind to try and reveg the reversed Hippy Slayer just as an experiment to see if it would still produce male flowers after its flipped again.

That is the question! Is there anything else out there in which DNA can be changed with an injection? Gene or genome editing scientists?? They might know or have some methodology. Cause and effect.....enough to change DNA, is evolution! In your example in blue above..the test would need to be on the same plant.....stress one with light or whatever, then put the silver to the other. Is the pollen different? Did the DNA change?
If it was possible to tweek pollen like that, there would be volumes of info on it out there.

 

[Willie]

I feel you its all the same pollen, I'm just saying the genetic material is what is the issue. If a plant easily herms then it will pass those trait more readily regardless if it was from chemical reversal or from an accident.

So a 0lant that has passed stress tests and then is reversed should in theory not produce as much intersex in offspring as a plant that formed male parts from a stressor like light leak or whatnot.

But it would take more scientific experiments to verify for sure.

I get that the gene pool is polluted....maybe nothings clean out there. I am not anti Fems either...they sure play a role here in my grow. I think the game of breeding fems dictates testing to see what works. If it works it works.."genetically". DNA is it.....why we all hunt ...repeatedly!

 

[thenotsoesoteric]

I get that the gene pool is polluted....maybe nothings clean out there. I am not anti Fems either...they sure play a role here in my grow. I think the game of breeding fems dictates testing to see what works. If it works it works.."genetically". DNA is it.....why we all hunt ...repeatedly!

100%

 

[Chip Green]

This absolutely has developed into a quality discussion.

My contention has always been, watch everything close, every time.
No doubt, some selections hold a higher propensity to reverse, it's up to us to decide where the threshold is, for our personal situations.

 

[Skunky Dunk Farms]

With all the crossing, backcrossing, selfing, femming, auto's and general manipulations thats been going on with cannabis its a wonder there are any left to gro normal.

 

[Amarok]

I've only been growing for 5 or 6 years, but I've never had hermie issues. If you saw my threads, I have stuck almost exclusively to IBLs and F1s (until recently) and other than the occasional pale, half-formed seeds in a plant that's a little over-ripe, the only times I ever see unplanned seeds is when I am chucking elsewhere in the building and a little stray pollen follows me to the flower room.

I believe that as long as everyone keeps chucking everything at everything and sending the progeny out untested, y'all are only going to see more and more nanners.
I think breeders should take more effort to test what they release, but growers should also know better than to run testers in with their regular run.

 

[Frimpong]

Shit happens , more so now than ever. I watch like a hawk and toss at first glance if anything out if the ordinary. All I can do really . That and take mental notes of who and what issues arose. One of the nicest plants I've ever grown was the only one out of four that didn't herm in a pack . Smh I'll probably never run them again but I did get an awesome pheno. So far ... Lol

 

[Lockedin]

I feel you its all the same pollen,

Let's follow that for a second.
Let's say that you have a chance to actually start over - sperm (pollen) is sperm, right? --- or, Who's your daddy?


I'm pondering this in my 4x4 right now. I have 4 males for pollen collection.
I think one will be culled at lights on - it's the smallest and has the fewest branches / flower clusters. <-- I don't want to breed that IN to my next crop.

Pretty sure I only need the pollen from one male - so for now I'm planning to keep the two big boys.
Both are nice looking plants - one is turning into a beast!
The plan is to pair the biggest boy's pollen with the two biggest girls - hand applying to all of both plants.

 

[curious2garden]

I thought some of you might enjoy reading this link as it answers some of your musings:

Frontiers | Hermaphroditism in Marijuana (Cannabis sativa L.) Inflorescences – Impact on Floral Morphology, Seed Formation, Progeny Sex Ratios, and Genetic Variation

Cannabis sativa L. (hemp, marijuana) produces male and female inflorescences on different plants (dioecious) and therefore the plants are obligatory out-cros...

www.frontiersin.org