will the wickedness never end?

greyfader

In Bloom
all seedlings are showing pre-flowers which is a relief since they are supposed to be fems.

readings in the hand-watered plants' reservoir containers are running about 870 ppm and 6.2. i take these from the drain overflow hole in the sidewall with a large turkey syringe. this is with the same input as the recirculating system. 5.7-5.8 and 840 ppm.

all plants look great and have shown no signs of transplant stress or shock. they continued growing as if nothing had happened.

no signs of deficiencies. no spotting or interveinal chlorosis.

turned on the dehuey as the room is up to about 65% at times. i don't want it any higher than that.

today 2-22-22, i set timers for flowering. first long dark period starting at 2:30 pm.

it's interesting to note that the four plants in the system, 2 orange kush cakes and 2 planet of the grapes, have stems that are at least 30% larger in diameter than the ones outside the system being hand watered. same strains, same age, same nutrients, same treatment except one set is in the ppk system.

i am going to try a new flower schedule for me. i know a lot of you experienced growers using high-intensity lighting have seen what i and others call "hitting the wall".

this is only noticed by folks running light at max levels. 1500 to 2000 umols.

cannabis plant metabolism ramps up linearly with increasing light until you reach about 1500 umols. there it plateaus until 2000 umols. after 2000 umols is exceeded metabolism drops off radically as in straight down on the graph.

this almost never happens in nature because we just don't get light much more intense than that.

but what we do see is plants using various light avoidance strategies after they have absorbed more light than the plant can process.

cannabis twists leaf ends and droops leaves in an attempt to attenuate light.

you don't see this with weak lighting but you folks that have run sunlight supply de's at 1500 umols have. i have recently seen the plant avoiding light in late afternoon in july in the field.

the wall occurs about 8 hrs into the light period.

i think i have seen it in timelapse videos.

also, with all the new led lighting we have seen another phenomenon. an unexplained slight nutrient problem related to perhaps the photosynthetic apparatus being driven more efficiently with leds than with hid lighting because the IR radiation of the hid lights is suppressing metabolism.

the led lights are causing an increase in the need for magnesium.

under hps lights i never needed to add mag using tap water. now i do.

all chlorophyll molecule types have a central magnesium atom.

since going to the modified 3-2-1 jacks, the slight interveinal chlorosis and calcium spotting have stopped.

back to the light schedule.

we mostly use a 12-12 flowering schedule. i recently read about sunflowers avoiding light late in the day. then other papers showed that various plants have light avoidance strategies.

i'm sure most of you are familiar with the term "daily light integral". this is the sum total of light a plant receives in a diurnal period. all plants evolved under a diurnal cycle.

we know that the highest light readings on the planet are in the 72 mole range.

taking nashville tn as an example, the highest total sunlight per day received here is in the 45 moles range. this is about 35 degrees latitude in late july or early aug.

research has shown cannabis can be grown with as little as 25 moles per day but for good production 35--45 moles is better.

most cannabis gurus tell you to run 800-1200 umols for the 12 hour period. but they don't explain why.

few people are actually measuring light and the led manufacturers know this. so they advise you to run the whole 12 hours so you get enough yield to think they have a good light.

and, most of the time the lights are so weak that you better follow their advice.

so taking the math for 1000 umols of light flow x 3600 sec in an hour x 12 hours we get 43.2 moles per diurnal period.

same math for 1500 umols x 3600 x 8 hours and we still get 43.2 moles per period.

being a short day facultative plant we know it won't stop flowering with 8 on and 16 off.

it will get the exact same amount of light in the diurnal period but without what?

it will reduce the prolonged exposure to heat. it will reduce electrical cost for lighting by 1/3. and electrical cost for cooling by the same ratio.

i'm hoping the reduction in heat and radiation exposure in general will help in terpene preservation.

we know terps have lower evaporative points than cannabinoids.

well, enough bs for now.
 

Texagonian

CHOOSE YOUR TITLE
Great information as always. I’ve got everything except the pumice and the rubber hose. I’ve been tossing around the possibility of using same diameter hose but silicone as I’m a mechanic by trade and have access to silicone hose in various sizes and length. It would compress and expand back around the smaller hole as you described same as the rubber hose. I may do a test fit with some and see how it holds. Hopefully it won’t facilitate unwanted growth of any nasties.
 

Texagonian

CHOOSE YOUR TITLE
let me know how it works with the silicone hose. i'm always looking for new materials. what are you going to use as a repeat cycle timer?
This rig right here. Has a countdown feature, programmable etc. if you have any suggestions I’m all ears. Will do on the silicone hose. I’m going for my pumice this weekend so I’m mostly there as far as supplies go. image.jpg
 

greyfader

In Bloom
funny, i was about to recommend this! i have owned every friggin timer out there and either they all took a dump on me or they cost a fortune.

so far mines holding up well.

i just thought of something! this means amazon has all our names and addresses.

omg! what are we going to do?
 

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Texagonian

CHOOSE YOUR TITLE
funny, i was about to recommend this! i have owned every friggin timer out there and either they all took a dump on me or they cost a fortune.

so far mines holding up well.

i just thought of something! this means amazon has all our names and addresses.

omg! what are we going to do?
That’s the only one I could find that had the countdown feature. I should’ve bought the two pack. I was going to use one for my cloning machine as running the pump constantly was causing the water temps to get too hot and have root issues. Funny enough though, I usually just root cuts in a glass of water especially if I need time between the cuts or not quite ready to do anything with them. I just change out the water daily to keep it fresh. 100% rooting every time I’ve done it that way. Is that timer easy to use? Haven’t even used mine yet?
 

DopeDaniel

Taste The Spectrum
IPM Forum Moderator
all seedlings are showing pre-flowers which is a relief since they are supposed to be fems.

readings in the hand-watered plants' reservoir containers are running about 870 ppm and 6.2. i take these from the drain overflow hole in the sidewall with a large turkey syringe. this is with the same input as the recirculating system. 5.7-5.8 and 840 ppm.

all plants look great and have shown no signs of transplant stress or shock. they continued growing as if nothing had happened.

no signs of deficiencies. no spotting or interveinal chlorosis.

turned on the dehuey as the room is up to about 65% at times. i don't want it any higher than that.

today 2-22-22, i set timers for flowering. first long dark period starting at 2:30 pm.

it's interesting to note that the four plants in the system, 2 orange kush cakes and 2 planet of the grapes, have stems that are at least 30% larger in diameter than the ones outside the system being hand watered. same strains, same age, same nutrients, same treatment except one set is in the ppk system.

i am going to try a new flower schedule for me. i know a lot of you experienced growers using high-intensity lighting have seen what i and others call "hitting the wall".

this is only noticed by folks running light at max levels. 1500 to 2000 umols.

cannabis plant metabolism ramps up linearly with increasing light until you reach about 1500 umols. there it plateaus until 2000 umols. after 2000 umols is exceeded metabolism drops off radically as in straight down on the graph.

this almost never happens in nature because we just don't get light much more intense than that.

but what we do see is plants using various light avoidance strategies after they have absorbed more light than the plant can process.

cannabis twists leaf ends and droops leaves in an attempt to attenuate light.

you don't see this with weak lighting but you folks that have run sunlight supply de's at 1500 umols have. i have recently seen the plant avoiding light in late afternoon in july in the field.

the wall occurs about 8 hrs into the light period.

i think i have seen it in timelapse videos.

also, with all the new led lighting we have seen another phenomenon. an unexplained slight nutrient problem related to perhaps the photosynthetic apparatus being driven more efficiently with leds than with hid lighting because the IR radiation of the hid lights is suppressing metabolism.

the led lights are causing an increase in the need for magnesium.

under hps lights i never needed to add mag using tap water. now i do.

all chlorophyll molecule types have a central magnesium atom.

since going to the modified 3-2-1 jacks, the slight interveinal chlorosis and calcium spotting have stopped.

back to the light schedule.

we mostly use a 12-12 flowering schedule. i recently read about sunflowers avoiding light late in the day. then other papers showed that various plants have light avoidance strategies.

i'm sure most of you are familiar with the term "daily light integral". this is the sum total of light a plant receives in a diurnal period. all plants evolved under a diurnal cycle.

we know that the highest light readings on the planet are in the 72 mole range.

taking nashville tn as an example, the highest total sunlight per day received here is in the 45 moles range. this is about 35 degrees latitude in late july or early aug.

research has shown cannabis can be grown with as little as 25 moles per day but for good production 35--45 moles is better.

most cannabis gurus tell you to run 800-1200 umols for the 12 hour period. but they don't explain why.

few people are actually measuring light and the led manufacturers know this. so they advise you to run the whole 12 hours so you get enough yield to think they have a good light.

and, most of the time the lights are so weak that you better follow their advice.

so taking the math for 1000 umols of light flow x 3600 sec in an hour x 12 hours we get 43.2 moles per diurnal period.

same math for 1500 umols x 3600 x 8 hours and we still get 43.2 moles per period.

being a short day facultative plant we know it won't stop flowering with 8 on and 16 off.

it will get the exact same amount of light in the diurnal period but without what?

it will reduce the prolonged exposure to heat. it will reduce electrical cost for lighting by 1/3. and electrical cost for cooling by the same ratio.

i'm hoping the reduction in heat and radiation exposure in general will help in terpene preservation.

we know terps have lower evaporative points than cannabinoids.

well, enough bs for now.
You should check out @torontoke 's thread on riu if you haven't already.


He found a reduced flower time in addition to electrical savings. The 8hr time period allows for the room to run during off peak electrical rate times, or at least less time during peak periods.

Another way to leaverage this is going with 3 rotating rooms with the same lighting electrical expense as 2 alternating 12/12.

I did non 24hr days 10/10 and had anecdotal evidence of a faster flower time.
 

greyfader

In Bloom
thank you! i haven't seen that yet. i read most of it this morning.

i began thinking about the subject after reading greenhouse research papers on various crops.

and for years i have heard about "the wall" from growers using extremely high light levels.

when i was growing upright trees indoors in a checkerboard pattern each plant had four bare 1k hortilux surrounding it. by the end of the grow they were 16-18" from the plants closest part.

about 8 hours into the period the leaves that had been standing up at attention all day would kind of lose turgor and start hanging downward.

as if avoiding the light.

in the riu journal i didn't see anyone using a par meter to quantify the ppfd.

i think that for this to work you need to provide the same amount of total light in the 6 or 8 hour period that you would normally apply in the 12 hour period.

so you need extremely powerful lights.

and a meter is essential for experimenting.

when designing a space the first thing i do is look at available amperage and design backwards from there.

the same electric bill with 50% greater yield sounds attractive to me.

i have, multiple times in the past, run alternating flip on 2 rooms. one set of ballast.

this really skewers the old gpw equation.
 
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Texagonian

CHOOSE YOUR TITLE
it is amazingly easy to use. bottom left of page 2 in the directions.

i splurged and got the 2 pack.

i'm being optimistic about it's life expectancy.
I’m probably going to order the two pack as I can use them. I found the instructions finally. I thought I got hosed because I was only seeing one sheet of instructions but found they were stuck together. I got a good laugh out of that. Mechanic hands and folded up thin paper can be challenging at times. ?
 

greyfader

In Bloom
.just messin' with you!

we are 15 days into flower. still maintaining an 8 hour photoperiod. 8 on 16 off.

but an incredibly intense 8 hours.

maintaining light flow between 1450-1800 umols. so delivering a minimum of 40 moles per diurnal period.

all growth looks normal. no spotting, yellowing, or any other signs of deficiencies.

100% perlite with a single topping of worm castings, vermiculite, and diatomaceous earth about 3/8" thick spread evenly over the entire surface.

root growth is visible at the tops of all containers. the 4 plants in the recirculating system are noticeably larger and more vigorous than the ones outside of the system.

i would like to note that the two orange kush cake stems shown are in almost exactly the same volume of media. both are using the tailpiece and air gap technique that 100% positively drains the perched water table after each watering.

both are being fed the same exact formula.

one is being top watered once per day to slight overflow to waste.

one is continuously recirculating nutrients at a schedule of 20 seconds every 3 hours around the clock. total pump run time of 160 sec per day.

no solution has been removed from this system. input only since startup. this includes all the vegetative time as well.

it reads 1200 ppm at 6.3 ph this morning with an input of around 950 ppm at 5.7-5.8.

yet the one in the recirculating system is much larger.

this is the ppk at work. this difference in growth rate is due to the synergistic effect that we get when combining the 24/7 sub-irrigation with regular, timed top watering.

the ppk is the flow pattern and timing not the containers you use. it is the patentable idea.

two containers are otherwise exactly alike but one grows a much heavier plant because of differing cultural treatment.

notice that the solution strength has increased in the lower containers both inside and outside of the system.

the solution is depleted during the growth phase and reads lower than input.

it begins accumulating nutrients at about the end of the second week of flower. this is perfectly normal.

i will begin dropping input strength with the next mix.
 

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Texagonian

CHOOSE YOUR TITLE
.just messin' with you!

we are 15 days into flower. still maintaining an 8 hour photoperiod. 8 on 16 off.

but an incredibly intense 8 hours.

maintaining light flow between 1450-1800 umols. so delivering a minimum of 40 moles per diurnal period.

all growth looks normal. no spotting, yellowing, or any other signs of deficiencies.

100% perlite with a single topping of worm castings, vermiculite, and diatomaceous earth about 3/8" thick spread evenly over the entire surface.

root growth is visible at the tops of all containers. the 4 plants in the recirculating system are noticeably larger and more vigorous than the ones outside of the system.

i would like to note that the two orange kush cake stems shown are in almost exactly the same volume of media. both are using the tailpiece and air gap technique that 100% positively drains the perched water table after each watering.

both are being fed the same exact formula.

one is being top watered once per day to slight overflow to waste.

one is continuously recirculating nutrients at a schedule of 20 seconds every 3 hours around the clock. total pump run time of 160 sec per day.

no solution has been removed from this system. input only since startup. this includes all the vegetative time as well.

it reads 1200 ppm at 6.3 ph this morning with an input of around 950 ppm at 5.7-5.8.

yet the one in the recirculating system is much larger.

this is the ppk at work. this difference in growth rate is due to the synergistic effect that we get when combining the 24/7 sub-irrigation with regular, timed top watering.

the ppk is the flow pattern and timing not the containers you use. it is the patentable idea.

two containers are otherwise exactly alike but one grows a much heavier plant because of differing cultural treatment.

notice that the solution strength has increased in the lower containers both inside and outside of the system.

the solution is depleted during the growth phase and reads lower than input.

it begins accumulating nutrients at about the end of the second week of flower. this is perfectly normal.

i will begin dropping input strength with the next mix.
I figured you were bs’n but had to ask ? Plants are looking great! I’m basically all set. Just need to figure out how to supply water from my main tank to the supply reservoir. I have a float valve. I’m just trying to figure out the plumbing from holding res to float and supply res. Probably overthinking it. I’m excited to see it in action. I’m going to run 4 sites with supply res in a 4x4 and do some serious training. Probably a fairly short veg but from clones. I’ll show what and how I’ve got things once I’m totally done.
 

greyfader

In Bloom
hey! i can't quit growing, it's all i know how to do anymore!

if you have enough room you can put the float valve in the recirculating reservoir by installing it inside a plastic box inside of the res.

in my setup above i use a whole bucket for the float and then restrict flow with the little plug.

but you can do the same thing with a little box with a hole in it. 7/64" is good. maybe i can find a pic.
 

Texagonian

CHOOSE YOUR TITLE
hey! i can't quit growing, it's all i know how to do anymore!

if you have enough room you can put the float valve in the recirculating reservoir by installing it inside a plastic box inside of the res.

in my setup above i use a whole bucket for the float and then restrict flow with the little plug.

but you can do the same thing with a little box with a hole in it. 7/64" is good. maybe i can find a pic.
Thank you for that. I’m going to use one of the smaller size black totes from Costco as the pump res and a brute trash can for the main res. The float valve will go in the supply res to the pump res, restriction plug in balance tube between pump res and supply res. Four port manifold from pump to each site with a ring made of nylon hose, elbow fittings and nozzle inserts for the ring. Picked up 200 ft of 1/2 inch nylon irrigation tubing from the depot that had been marked down to 1 cent per roll. 200 ft for 2 cents. The fittings and nozzles were also from them. I’m in to the build for way under 50 bucks so far. I’m just trying to figure out what to do from the brute can to the supply res float valve as far as plumbing. I need to see what all came with the float valve as I may have to reduce and adapt down or up depending. Do you recommend a catch pond of some sort? I don’t want to flood my house! It’ll have to fit in the damn tent. Maybe time to ditch the tents and do some temporary frame work and half up my room they’re currently in. Set the system in those kiddie pools like you’re doing. Those are cheap.
 

greyfader

In Bloom
the only reason i'm using the pools is to protect the carpet in this old farmhouse i'm renting.

i use the black rubber hose from the trash can to the float valve as it seals extremely well in the 13/16" hole i drilled in the trash can. they do not leak.

previously i have used all kinds of bulkhead fittings but this hose tech is as good as any of them.

i bought float valves that have 1/2" threaded male pipe ends so that i could use a 1/2" double-threaded female connector.

is your nylon tubing soft and flexible? which one is it?
 
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