Collective discussion on all things Hydroponic

[NotAquaMan]

Ok this is a link applied to aquariums. It's the principles I'm saying that apply to hydro and preservation of bacteria. But should give you some insight if my thought process.

The Estimative Index of Dosing, or No Need for Test Kits

The Estimative Index - What is it? The Estimative index is a simple method to dose nutrients for any tank without test kits. In a nut shell, the aquarist doses frequently to prevent anything from running out (plant deficiency) and does large weekly water changes to prevent any build up...

barrreport.com

 

[DopeDaniel]

Cant go by EI feet values or ratios. But can absolutely apply the principles.

I have this one. You definitely don't need that. You can check with just a free ammonia test. But in all honesty if you dechlorinate (few ways to do thins depending on chlorine or chloramines in the water supply) then seed you will be good to go. I mean there is more to understanding about different types but yes you can use this to verify denitrifying bacteria based on a free ammonia test kit.

Also another option to add more diversity is enzymes but you can take it as far as you want. It's a cost vs gain thing and nothing is actually a must.

Im on a well, about 120 ppm raw, I use ro. Will have to check the link later thanks, sleep calls.

 

[NotAquaMan]

Off to bed also. I would have no issue using 120ppm. So long as it not packed full of say iron or something.

 

[JL2G]

I find this a very interesting thread, even though I don't do hydro. Lol.
I love the mechanics of things, and the how things work etc.
Some very interesting reads.
Awesomesauce @NotAquaMan ???

 

[spyralout]

I don't do hydro

We need to fix that.

 

[NotAquaMan]

Ok next controversial topic/opinion... Dissolved oxygen

So let start with some facts.

Water temperature directly affects o2 levels. Much like temperature affects RH the lower the temperature the higher the o2 level to start with.

One common argument I see is that we want to run cooler temps because the cooler the water the more dissolved oxygen for our needs.

Now I agree with that statement but even with temps in the upper 70's there is adequate dissolved oxygen.

IMO the DO saturation point is not what we should be focused on but rather the replenishment of DO in the water.

So how does water exchange gasses. Well the speed of the exchange depends on the gas and how far it has drifted below equalibrium, let's stick to the 2 that I feel we should concentrate on. CO2 and o2. CO2 is a gas that is much more easily dissolved in water and off gassed than o2. This is why PH can be affected but I won't get into this yet.

So gas exchange does not happen from the bubbles with the exception of the absolute tiniest amounts. It's happens on the surface and the largest factor involved is surface agitation and surface area. So whether waterfall, airstones or powerhead the amount of surface exposure and agitation is where you want to focus.

The dissolved gasses always try to reach equalibrium with the air. There are factors at play like force, temp, surface area and surface movement that affect gas exchange. For instance you can prove this to yourself if you have a ph meter and an air pump or even a fan by showing the change in CO2 concentrations by measuring the ph of water. CO2 dissolved is water creates carbonic acid which will lower the ph.

Take a tall skinny glass and a flat wide dish and fill with equal parts of tap water. Measure the ph of both and go back every hour for 12 hrs you will see the oh rising at different rates because of the surface exposure. Adding an airstone or fan blowing on the water to make ripples will speed this process up exponentially. Why does the ph rise? Because in the water system gases are under pressure and there are organics and as the chlorine breaks them down it's creates... You guessed it CO2 and because it's under pressure the majority of it is forced into the water and forms carbonic acid which... You guessed it lowers the ph. So when we let it sit out or agitate it the CO2 tries to reach equalibrium and because there is more CO2 in the water then in the atmosphere it's tries to balance and CO2 escapes from the water and thus the ph rises

This is where people say airstones raise my ph.. well why is that? Because they provide good gas exchange and previously you may not have had enough. So after you prove this to yourself I think most would agree that it's beneficial to aerate your water out of the tap, in you rea and in your system.

Now once equalibrium is reached you will have a stable pH. It's very hard to dissolve o2 and even CO2 into water above equalibrium with out changing the pressure like for instance our water system.

Although I have done it with a rex Griggs CO2 reactor I built to control my water ph with co2 but not for hydroponics.

I should add the further the drift below equalibrium the harder the water tries to get back to equalibrium. Think of it like a rubber band

Gonna leave this long winded post here and see where it goes

 

[spyralout]

so based on some discussions in @SSGrower 's question thread - I will ask here, since the thread has been marked answered.

I have a UV unit mounted in the Epi bucket now (as well as the RO collection can). IDK if it will be completely submerged, the top where it has the air line might be above water. If it works, then would it be worthwhile to try running with no bennies and just the two UVs? I know in a previous thread I said I needed a couple of solid runs so I had to put some experimentation on hold. However, I have an opportunity now that could save me time and money if it works. If the roots and overall "smell" of the system starts going south, I could have bennies on standby in the fridge to toss in. I think it would be enough time to make a turnaround if I'm on top of it (especially in RDWC).

There's an "alliance" at another place where people mention there's a difference between UC RDWC and RDWC, meaning the Under Current design is different than a top fed waterfall, etc.

 

[NotAquaMan]

so based on some discussions in @SSGrower 's question thread - I will ask here, since the thread has been marked answered.

I have a UV unit mounted in the Epi bucket now (as well as the RO collection can). IDK if it will be completely submerged, the top where it has the air line might be above water. If it works, then would it be worthwhile to try running with no bennies and just the two UVs? I know in a previous thread I said I needed a couple of solid runs so I had to put some experimentation on hold. However, I have an opportunity now that could save me time and money if it works. If the roots and overall "smell" of the system starts going south, I could have bennies on standby in the fridge to toss in. I think it would be enough time to make a turnaround if I'm on top of it (especially in RDWC).

There's an "alliance" at another place where people mention there's a difference between UC RDWC and RDWC, meaning the Under Current design is different than a top fed waterfall, etc.

Absolutely I don't see why it wouldn't work. The UV will kill any spores in the water that pass through it. This will keep reproduction almost to nothing. The reason I asked him about h2o2 with it is because of the slight chance that a local infection of roots which the light does not cover. So a small does of h2o2 would make it I feel almost 100% effective over say 95% effective. I just made those numbers up. I cant see why the UV itself would not be enough but I do not have enough experience with it and certainly not in hydro to say one way or the other.

 

[DopeDaniel]

Absolutely I don't see why it wouldn't work. The UV will kill any spores in the water that pass through it. This will keep reproduction almost to nothing. The reason I asked him about h2o2 with it is because of the slight chance that a local infection of roots which the light does not cover. So a small does of h2o2 would make it I feel almost 100% effective over say 95% effective. I just made those numbers up. I cant see why the UV itself would not be enough but I do not have enough experience with it and certainly not in hydro to say one way or the other.

I just dosed the trays with peroxide. Closed the fill valve so it could soak the bottom, then filled it to get the roots.
I was having trouble getting my garden going, new setup and was trying to use the raw well water in my soil and it contributed to some other issues I think. Figured I would start with aomething I know won't be part of the problem.

This is my resivoir log. The dates with dots next to them indicate when uv was added (first in flower, them moved it to veg, procured 2nd unit 3 days later)

I just pulled 2 males from the tray and put a vegging plant in. The log pick was taken before adding 0.5 gal (water with 30 ml 34%) peroxide treatment which dropped ppm to 670.

My veg, seedlingsand clones are in the same tray and all get 4 - 450ppm.

Here are some pics of the flower tray so if you see something (I have low rh and always will) say something.




The different stages and strains I think help with nutrient balance. One plants a Ca whore while another sucks N. I make my top up solution with 250ppm WCaP and about 500ppm megacrop, for veg I just dilute this to desired ppm. I was going to change the resivoirs at 28 days but don't honestly see the need.

 

[NotAquaMan]

I just dosed the trays with peroxide. Closed the fill valve so it could soak the bottom, then filled it to get the roots.
I was having trouble getting my garden going, new setup and was trying to use the raw well water in my soil and it contributed to some other issues I think. Figured I would start with aomething I know won't be part of the problem.

This is my resivoir log. The dates with dots next to them indicate when uv was added (first in flower, them moved it to veg, procured 2nd unit 3 days later)
View attachment 8984
I just pulled 2 males from the tray and put a vegging plant in. The log pick was taken before adding 0.5 gal (water with 30 ml 34%) peroxide treatment which dropped ppm to 670.

My veg, seedlingsand clones are in the same tray and all get 4 - 450ppm.
View attachment 8987
Here are some pics of the flower tray so if you see something (I have low rh and always will) say something.
View attachment 8988
View attachment 8989
View attachment 8990

The different stages and strains I think help with nutrient balance. One plants a Ca whore while another sucks N. I make my top up solution with 250ppm WCaP and about 500ppm megacrop, for veg I just dilute this to desired ppm. I was going to change the resivoirs at 28 days but don't honestly see the need.

Very nice... I can see very early signs of K deficiency. But I think it's more lockout related??? I mean it's not uncommon to see some slight K deficiency in early flower but mega crop is pretty high in K so that's why I'm leaning a bit towards the start of a lockout...Usually it will be followed by calcium

Maybe a tiny heat/light stress?

What lights are ya using? If your driving them hard in low RH it could exasperate the issue.

Any which way the first thing I do if I have an issue is lower the light and raise humidity. I know you say humidity is not an option.

Are you top feeding these or wick feeding?

 

[DopeDaniel]

Very nice... I can see very early signs of K deficiency. But I think it's more lockout related??? I mean it's not uncommon to see some slight K deficiency in early flower but mega crop is pretty high in K so that's why I'm leaning a bit towards the start of a lockout...Usually it will be followed by calcium

Maybe a tiny heat/light stress?

What lights are ya using? If your driving them hard in low RH it could exasperate the issue.

Any which way the first thing I do if I have an issue is lower the light and raise humidity. I know you say humidity is not an option.

Are you top feeding these or wick feeding?

600W of diy led. about right for the area, another flower tray will be comming online eventually and that will hpefully help the rh and warm temps. Too difficult to add humidity and mitigate pm better to just let them adjust on their own, I am looking for plants that perform better with minimal input.

When I hear wick I think sip, these are flood and drain that fills from the bottom.

 

[spyralout]

I see some heat stress as well. Leaf taco, but not bleaching, so may not necessarily be light intensity.

Some have leaf claw, would make me think high N. But the leaves aren't super deep green.

When you went from 680 PPM to 810 PPM, did you notice the PPM stay, then rise, so you diluted to get it down to 690? That has worked for me maybe 25% of the time, speaking from RDWC. In F&D, I have a little more time to fix it. But in RDWC, once it locks, only a full flush for a day or so will allow me to ease back into the PPM.

 

[DopeDaniel]

I see some heat stress as well. Leaf taco, but not bleaching, so may not necessarily be light intensity.

Some have leaf claw, would make me think high N. But the leaves aren't super deep green.

When you went from 680 PPM to 810 PPM, did you notice the PPM stay, then rise, so you diluted to get it down to 690? That has worked for me maybe 25% of the time, speaking from RDWC. In F&D, I have a little more time to fix it. But in RDWC, once it locks, only a full flush for a day or so will allow me to ease back into the PPM.

I got tip burn when I upped it to 800 at the res change so I backed it down.
I am tending to think you guys are seeing the result of my dry climate. Glad to have more eyes on it, I appreciate the perspective. The plants that are tacoing for the most part are my chuck, Air Trigger (red headed stranger x CnC(greenpoint). Though the DCP (chuckers gear) I just put in is showing it the one that is in flower looks like a palm tree and would never pray.

That clawing imo is the dry air.

Being I am at 500ppm mc I wouldn't N toxicity to be an issue. Perhaps the phosphorous in the WCaP could be causing K lockout that @NotAquaMan is seeing or perhaps there truely is a slight def?

 

[DopeDaniel]

The commentary made me look with open eyes this morning.
I repositioned my light a while back, tipping the vertical cob assembly inward a bit, the pannel assembly was already tilted inward.

This brought the light closer to the canopy, but I didnt notice it probably because there was no canopy to speak of at the time. The plants grew into an area where the light was too intense.

Moved the rack back about 6-8 inches.
Still might have a K issue.

This plant and most of its siblings (DCP f2) have been a bit light shy. I will up the MC after chopping the Blue Ripper bx1 (@groerr) if moving the rack doesn't help in the next couple three weeks.


Today is a perfect example of why I cant add humidity. It is foggy and rainy. Whatever humidifier I get needs to be tied to what the intake air conditions, this is what pros (people who do it for money but may not necessarily be experts) do. Essentially the air gets over humidified and an effeciently sized dehumidifier is overwhelmed. This is just an invite for pm given the diurnal temperature changes of my intake air. Could run sealed but this adds ac or minisplit and CO2, thats what pros do....#notpro

 

[NotAquaMan]

I got tip burn when I upped it to 800 at the res change so I backed it down.
I am tending to think you guys are seeing the result of my dry climate. Glad to have more eyes on it, I appreciate the perspective. The plants that are tacoing for the most part are my chuck, Air Trigger (red headed stranger x CnC(greenpoint). Though the DCP (chuckers gear) I just put in is showing it the one that is in flower looks like a palm tree and would never pray.

That clawing imo is the dry air.

Being I am at 500ppm mc I wouldn't N toxicity to be an issue. Perhaps the phosphorous in the WCaP could be causing K lockout that @NotAquaMan is seeing or perhaps there truely is a slight def?

Absolutely could be brother

 

[NotAquaMan]

@SSGrower I can almost assure you there is not a deficiency... But I think your on to something with the P. I have seen higher P used in ok boosters cause very similar issues

 

[DopeDaniel]

@SSGrower I can almost assure you there is not a deficiency... But I think your on to something with the P. I have seen higher P used in ok boosters cause very similar issues

In which case I would think it might be better to use a dash of Cal-Nit in place of the WCaP for veg and use the WCaP in flower. This is making one of those test kits more appealing...

 

[NotAquaMan]

In which case I would think it might be better to use a dash of Cal-Nit in place of the WCaP for veg and use the WCaP in flower. This is making one of those test kits more appealing...

Yes but you need to kinda Jimmy the test because it has limits. So you would dilute it by 75% with distilled water then multiply the results times 4 depending on the range you need.

But in doing so you only really need a one year then you have your newer and the kit is wasted.

 

[Frosty78]

interseting thread. im an outdoor fella but looking at indoor methods last few months. dwc and rdwc both appeal to me
ill keep an eye out on this thread.

 

[DavidDellaRocco]

interseting thread. im an outdoor fella but looking at indoor methods last few months. dwc and rdwc both appeal to me
ill keep an eye out on this thread.

If you want something super easy but with hydro results, have a look at Hempy buckets. You grow in buckets of perlite (with or without varying mixes of either coco or vermiculite) with a small reservoir at the bottom. I use pure perlite.
Another benefit is how light it is. I have a blown back, hip, shoulder and neck. I went thru a tree on a race quad, no idea how fast, but I was in top gear and flew off a decent drop off before hitting the tree.....so you can imagine it was a doozy lol! Some days I feel like Quasimodo lol!
Hempy buckets are easy to maneuver because they have less water than DWC, and are much lighter than soaked soil bags, so for my body aches it's been a quite a relief.

Very efficient. Virtually impossible to overwater. You water every day or two to runoff so salt buildup is much easier to keep at a minimum. If you add beneficial bacteria, you can virtually guarantee a pathogen free reservoir, without the need for airpumps, or scrubbing buckets/rezzes out.

Great results with no moving parts. You can automate Hempy buckets with timed irrigation rather than hand watering, but don't mention it if you do, because Hempy purists can be savages lol

I'm currently waiting for two of my tents to finish in dirt so I can be 100% Hempy all the way around my entire setup. I've used it lots in the past and I am at it again and I regret not sticking with it thru the years.


Best of luck, no matter the method you choose.