coste's mixed bag

[Buck5050]

What do you usually do when your pH drifts up like that?

 

[coste]

What do you usually do when your pH drifts up like that?

It depends on the other parameters. If the pH increases, EC stays the same, and the water level hasn't dropped enough to where I feel a top off is necessary (I allot 3 gallons every two days for drop off limit), I just pH it back to where I want it. I try to keep a swing from 5.3 - 6.8. What this indicates is the plants are happy with what you've got put together, and is typical.

Now, if EC rises, pH rises, and water level drops beyond my limits, I top off, re-add adequate hygrozyme, pH back to ~5.5 and add back adequate hydroguard.

If EC and pH rise, and water drops significantly, I just do a full change out.

A swing like that isn't a bad thing -- it allows for full uptake across the spectrum. It's when it exceeds the outer limits that you run into problems. At least, that's my opinion on the matter, I used to mimic similar behavior in coco in a handwatered DTW setup I used to run, and never had issues.

 

[Buck5050]

It depends on the other parameters. If the pH increases, EC stays the same, and the water level hasn't dropped enough to where I feel a top off is necessary (I allot 3 gallons every two days for drop off limit), I just pH it back to where I want it. I try to keep a swing from 5.3 - 6.8. What this indicates is the plants are happy with what you've got put together, and is typical.

Now, if EC rises, pH rises, and water level drops beyond my limits, I top off, re-add adequate hygrozyme, pH back to ~5.5 and add back adequate hydroguard.

If EC and pH rise, and water drops significantly, I just do a full change out.

A swing like that isn't a bad thing -- it allows for full uptake across the spectrum. It's when it exceeds the outer limits that you run into problems. At least, that's my opinion on the matter, I used to mimic similar behavior in coco in a handwatered DTW setup I used to run, and never had issues.

I have read a few things on the pH drifts, Like you mentioned it's nice for it to swing through the spectrum which makes a ton of sense to me as well. I am completely interested in what other hydroponic growers are doing to manage their reservoirs and change outs. So for now you're going two weeks between a fresh res?

 

[coste]

I have read a few things on the pH drifts, Like you mentioned it's nice for it to swing through the spectrum which makes a ton of sense to me as well. I am completely interested in what other hydroponic growers are doing to manage their reservoirs and change outs. So for now you're going two weeks between a fresh res?

Up to this week, I've been doing change outs every Sunday. But eliminating the shock, and adding the hygrozyme and hydroguard seems to have helped stabilize the intensity of the EC increases in correlation with the water consumption. This week I just topped off with water, and did as I mentioned. I'll see how it goes, with the full acknowledgement and willingness to change course if the parameters warrant it.

 

[coste]

So I'm preparing for a fight. I noticed slight yellow spotting a few days ago on one fan leaf. Tonight, while doing a res change out (pH swing was too excessive, received some solid advice on a more consistent method of mixing a new res) I noticed leaf damage. There are two possible options for this kind of leaf damage.

The first is, too high of RH with the density of growth. I can't do much about that right now. Still need to get a dehuey.

The second is, mites. I cannot 100% confirm that at this time due to lacking an adequate scope to find em.

Either way, I'll be picking up some organic treatments for them this weekend. Hopefully it's not an infestation getting ready to set root. Any input is appreciated.

 

[Buck5050]

Kinda weird it's towards the tips on every leaf. Almost like the beginnings of a nute lockout. What in particular is making you think mites?

 

[coste]

Kinda weird it's towards the tips on every leaf. Almost like the beginnings of a nute lockout. What in particular is making you think mites?

Mainly the presentation. I've not seen nutrient-related symptoms appear like this before. Especially with that new damage. It's too... centralized and structured if that makes sense? It absolutely could be lockout caused by the rapid pH swings, but I'm hesitant to buy into that idea yet.

Though, I've been fucking with my additives a lot lately. Eliminating pool shock, replacing with hygrozyme, then adding hydroguard all within the span of about two weeks. This may be indicative of other issues going on. Time will tell, but I'm for sure picking up something to soak these girls with to kill any undesirables.

 

[coste]

Alright, res change out is done. I don't trust my ppm meter, a new one is on the list of need sooner than later. Max PPM that registered: 806, consistently showed 777, and 755, bouncing between the two. pH 5.5. We'll see what happens over the next 24 hours.

My previous process:

Tap water: 9 gallons, ~160ppm
DynaGro Pro-Tekt: 45ml
[Allow to mix for 10min, or however long it takes to get a concentration of the next part dissolved 100% in a pint glass, via venturi pump after concentrate added to res]
Front Row AG, part A: 27g
[Allow to mix for 5min, or however long it takes to get a concentration of the next part dissolved 100% in a pint glass, via venturi pump after concentrate added to res]
Front Row AG, part B: 25g
[Allow to mix while pouring the next part via venturi pump after concentrate added to res]
Hygrozyme: 3oz
[Allow to mix for 5min via venturi pump after concentrate added to res]
pH down: 40ml
Hydroguard: 18ml (this takes a little time, 5ml kid medicine syringe full 2x, 3ml 1x)

Tonight's process:

Tap, 9 gallons
Protekt, 45ml
[Allow to mix for 30min via venturi pump after concentrate added to res]
pH down to 6.5 <---- this is the big difference. I started at 30ml, and ended up adding 10ml more to get to this level
[Allow to mix for 10min via venturi pump after concentrate added to res]
Front Row AG, part A: 27g
[Allow to mix for 10min via venturi pump after concentrate added to res]
Front Row AG, part B: 25g
[Allow to mix for 10min via venturi pump after concentrate added to res]
Hygrozyme: 3oz
[Allow to mix for 10min via venturi pump after concentrate added to res]
pH down to 5.5 <-- Added an additional 8ml to get here
[Wait 30 min, adjust pH further if needed after concentrate added to res]
Hydroguard: 18ml

I set timers for each stage of this process. My venturi pump moves 160gph. That translates to theoretically all nine gallons of solution being mixed in ~ 4 minutes. However, accounting for dead spots (I'm not running airstones) it's important to add a buffer here. To gain an entirely homogeneous solution, one can roughly estimate 2.6 x 9 = 24. This (now identified miscalculation) was spawned by (gph / minutes in an hour) x res volume, ie (g/t) x v. (g/t) provides gallons per minute. Volume is the available volume to be moved. Round up to a solid 30 for good measure.

By pHing down after full confidence the 45ml has been fully mixed with the 9 gallons of fresh water, we're starting at a slightly acidic baseline. This should prevent condensate or fallout of compounds from the next additives.

The idea persists through adding part A and allowing 10 minutes of mixing. This is a bit more conservative, but these are much less volatile and provide much less buffer abilities than potassium silicate as provided by Front Row AG (at least my blend, which is for RO water).

Same with part B, see above.

Now, hygrozyme is a bit tricky. It appears to be heavier than the other additives, and sinks through the solution, quickly. I need to pH it and determine what may be the cause of this. It very well may just have a heavy molar mass given what it is. It does not appear to contribute to pH fluctuations from what I can tell.

Finally, pHing to the target number. While this process does result in slightly higher use of pH down, it was much easier to get to target without such significant transition for typically starting pH of 7.8 to 5.5. After allowing thorough mixing (per above schedule) 8ml of pH down brought final pH right to 5.55. Can't get more ideal than that for a refresh.

This is a bit of an experiment this change out. I've been dealing with some drastic pH swings over 24 hours. Seeing a ten point swing over a week is one thing, over 24 hours indicates a complete lack of effective buffering. Pro-tekt should offer that buffering, as prior to pHing, the res was sitting at 9.8.

I should've measured ppm before starting, because for the first time I was seeing < 100 ppm on my meter after adding silica, which makes me wonder wtf. My tap was coming out at 160 ppm fairly consistently, but it's been a good while since I checked it.

Final "identified" numbers are 755 ppm, pH 5.55. We'll see what tomorrow holds. If this proved to be a waste of nearly two hours, so be it. However, it if holds stable on pH and shows a steady decrease in water and EC, with pH remaining stable, I'll know this is the process to adhere to going forward.

 

[Frimpong]

Alright, res change out is done. I don't trust my ppm meter, a new one is on the list of need sooner than later. Max PPM that registered: 806, consistently showed 777, and 755, bouncing between the two. pH 5.5. We'll see what happens over the next 24 hours.

My previous process:

Tap water: 9 gallons, ~160ppm
DynaGro Pro-Tekt: 45ml
[Allow to mix for 10min, or however long it takes to get a concentration of the next part dissolved 100% in a pint glass, via venturi pump after concentrate added to res]
Front Row AG, part A: 27g
[Allow to mix for 5min, or however long it takes to get a concentration of the next part dissolved 100% in a pint glass, via venturi pump after concentrate added to res]
Front Row AG, part B: 25g
[Allow to mix while pouring the next part via venturi pump after concentrate added to res]
Hygrozyme: 3oz
[Allow to mix for 5min via venturi pump after concentrate added to res]
pH down: 40ml
Hydroguard: 18ml (this takes a little time, 5ml kid medicine syringe full 2x, 3ml 1x)

Tonight's process:

Tap, 9 gallons
Protekt, 45ml
[Allow to mix for 30min via venturi pump after concentrate added to res]
pH down to 6.5 <---- this is the big difference. I started at 30ml, and ended up adding 10ml more to get to this level
[Allow to mix for 10min via venturi pump after concentrate added to res]
Front Row AG, part A: 27g
[Allow to mix for 10min via venturi pump after concentrate added to res]
Front Row AG, part B: 25g
[Allow to mix for 10min via venturi pump after concentrate added to res]
Hygrozyme: 3oz
[Allow to mix for 10min via venturi pump after concentrate added to res]
pH down to 5.5 <-- Added an additional 8ml to get here
[Wait 30 min, adjust pH further if needed after concentrate added to res]
Hydroguard: 18ml

I set timers for each stage of this process. My venturi pump moves 160gph. That translates to theoretically all nine gallons of solution being mixed in ~ 4 minutes. However, accounting for dead spots (I'm not running airstones) it's important to add a buffer here. To gain an entirely homogeneous solution, one can roughly estimate 2.6 x 9 = 24. This (now identified miscalculation) was spawned by (gph / minutes in an hour) x res volume, ie (g/t) x v. (g/t) provides gallons per minute. Volume is the available volume to be moved. Round up to a solid 30 for good measure.

By pHing down after full confidence the 45ml has been fully mixed with the 9 gallons of fresh water, we're starting at a slightly acidic baseline. This should prevent condensate or fallout of compounds from the next additives.

The idea persists through adding part A and allowing 10 minutes of mixing. This is a bit more conservative, but these are much less volatile and provide much less buffer abilities than potassium silicate as provided by Front Row AG (at least my blend, which is for RO water).

Same with part B, see above.

Now, hygrozyme is a bit tricky. It appears to be heavier than the other additives, and sinks through the solution, quickly. I need to pH it and determine what may be the cause of this. It very well may just have a heavy molar mass given what it is. It does not appear to contribute to pH fluctuations from what I can tell.

Finally, pHing to the target number. While this process does result in slightly higher use of pH down, it was much easier to get to target without such significant transition for typically starting pH of 7.8 to 5.5. After allowing thorough mixing (per above schedule) 8ml of pH down brought final pH right to 5.55. Can't get more ideal than that for a refresh.

This is a bit of an experiment this change out. I've been dealing with some drastic pH swings over 24 hours. Seeing a ten point swing over a week is one thing, over 24 hours indicates a complete lack of effective buffering. Pro-tekt should offer that buffering, as prior to pHing, the res was sitting at 9.8.

I should've measured ppm before starting, because for the first time I was seeing < 100 ppm on my meter after adding silica, which makes me wonder wtf. My tap was coming out at 160 ppm fairly consistently, but it's been a good while since I checked it.

Final "identified" numbers are 755 ppm, pH 5.55. We'll see what tomorrow holds. If this proved to be a waste of nearly two hours, so be it. However, it if holds stable on pH and shows a steady decrease in water and EC, with pH remaining stable, I'll know this is the process to adhere to going forward.

U end up finding any mites ?

 

[Idlewilder]

The spotting looks a little like early calcium deficiency/lockout

 

[Buck5050]

I think the plants look really good so far. I can relate to the perfectionist and scientific approach. Pretty amazing.

A decent IPM is a really nice upgrade for any garden and I can't wait to see what you choose.

From a bit of experience from my past in relation to what you're seeing with the pH and possible lockout, the tap water might be the culprit. 180ppm isn't the worse by any means you just don't know what that consist of at any given time. Once I switched over to RO water all my swings went away. I actually had to buy pH up and stopped using the down. It has definitely been one of the best upgrades to my gardening I ever made.

Like I said in the beginning your plants are looking real good and your shit is together. I can't wait for some buds.

 

[coste]

U end up finding any mites ?

I have not seen anything even remotely resembling a mite, unless they're microscopic and won't even show up under a 100x scope.

The spotting looks a little like early calcium deficiency/lockout

After some discussion with a buddy, I believe this is the most accurate diagnosis. With the pH swings I've been having, it's very likely early calcium lock out and checking across various diagnosis charts, the symptoms line up. Healthy foliage with a random, necrotic spot. The leaf flesh at the damage points looks almost like it's rotted under a scope, which lines up with this deficiency's pattern.

I think the plants look really good so far. I can relate to the perfectionist and scientific approach. Pretty amazing.

A decent IPM is a really nice upgrade for any garden and I can't wait to see what you choose.

From a bit of experience from my past in relation to what you're seeing with the pH and possible lockout, the tap water might be the culprit. 180ppm isn't the worse by any means you just don't know what that consist of at any given time. Once I switched over to RO water all my swings went away. I actually had to buy pH up and stopped using the down. It has definitely been one of the best upgrades to my gardening I ever made.

Like I said in the beginning your plants are looking real good and your shit is together. I can't wait for some buds.

I agree 100%. It's on the list of first improvements to get taken care of when I buy the house I'm renting. Hoping early next year everything will fall into place for that to happen. We'll see if this new drawn out process is of any benefit, and if not, I'll start cutting the tap with RO so I don't have to haul so much from the water station on a weekly basis. Thank you for the kind words! I'm pretty stoked for things to move along and get to flowering as well

 

[coste]

Just checked the pH, and it's up at 6.7 again. dammit. looks like i'll be picking up some RO and seeing if it'll actually staying stable. Motherfucker. Seems like since switching to a live res i can't keep the pH even remotely on point. If RO doesn't work, then I'm going back to sterile with peroxide.

 

[Buck5050]

Because I rent as well I didn't go for the full blown 5 stage RO system with a tank. I took a gamble and grabbed a countertop model. It does a decent job for just tapping into the output of a faucet. I end up with 12-17 ppm at 6.4pH as a starting point. It wasn't as expensive as the under sink units and takes about 3 hour to fill a 5 gallon bucket but does a decent job. I can even use a water hose if I wanted to. I think it was $130 but I see similar models close to $100.

 

[coste]

Because I rent as well I didn't go for the full blown 5 stage RO system with a tank. I took a gamble and grabbed a countertop model. It does a decent job for just tapping into the output of a faucet. I end up with 12-17 ppm at 6.4pH as a starting point. It wasn't as expensive as the under sink units and takes about 3 hour to fill a 5 gallon bucket but does a decent job. I can even use a water hose if I wanted to. I think it was $130 but I see similar models close to $100.

damn.... that'd be an all day ordeal to fill my reservoirs with something like that. Like, literally 18 hour day. I've debated subscribing to a water delivery service, so I could just have them do the jug hauling. Need to get pricing on it though.

 

[Buck5050]

damn.... that'd be an all day ordeal to fill my reservoirs with something like that. Like, literally 18 hour day. I've debated subscribing to a water delivery service, so I could just have them do the jug hauling. Need to get pricing on it though.

You can add an inline (permeate) pump to increase rate if needed. For me I store about 20 gallons at a time in a sterile trashcan. They make a float option as well that can keep things topped off. I'll probably set up a barrel and a float at some point just so it's always available.

 

[coste]

You can add an inline (permeate) pump to increase rate if needed. For me I store about 20 gallons at a time in a sterile trashcan. They make a float option as well that can keep things topped off. I'll probably set up a barrel and a float at some point just so it's always available.

That's an idea. That way it's not some insanely long process to do change outs or top offs. Like, having to plan a week in advance to ensure you start the fill up at the right time lol

 

[coste]

Alright, in my quest to solve this mystery, I found some updated feed charts from Front Row AG. Looks like my ratio for part A and part B are off in addition to everything else that may be playing a role in this. Head math and sloppy weighing bit me, I tell ya what.

Based on the HARD Rockwool Dry GRxGL Feed Chart document located here, if I were running feed at 100% I should be applying:

34.2 grams Part A
22.5 grams Part B

Now, I'm not running at 100%, I'm trying to run closer to 70% - 75%. So, multiplying those numbers by .75 gives:

26.65 grams Part A
16.92 grams Part B

Here's the kicker. What I've been doing is more along the lines of:

28.5 grams Part A
25 grams Part B

If I were feeding on their ratios, which aren't exactly linear ask you scale down from recommendations, I'd be feeding on a ratio of 66% part B to part A. What I've actually been feeding at is closer to 88% part B to part A. Roughly a 20% difference between the recommendations for this stage of growth and what I'm actually doing.

This is food for thought based on further down on the above linked document. Here is what is written so you don't have to go read it for yourself:

FRONT-ROW AG PART-A Delivers highly chelated micro-nutrients, Calcium and Nitrogen at unprecedented solubility & availability at wide pH ranges.

FRONT-ROW AG PART-B Delivers essential concentrations of magnesium and sulfur to ensure optimized photosynthesis, ideal volumes of potassium and phosphorus, combined with surfactants and citric acid evenly distribute fertilize Ions, and ensure unparalleled solubility

Let me know what you think. I'm starting to think this is probably a pretty big contributing factor, and will be corrected in tonight's res change.

 

[coste]

Alright guys, here's the game plan. At this point, I'm going through a process of elimination. The root cause of the pH fluctuations will be uncovered, and I don't really feel any risk of losing the plants yet. I just want the plants to be of the best health possible, and to know how to run this system as dialed as possible.

Tonight's experiment is just like last nights, changing two things:

- Use RO water instead of tap. This will eliminate any substances in my tap water that may be causing problems.
- Use full strength mix of nutrients at exact ratios per recommendations. This will also indicate if the incorrect ratio was upsetting the buffering of the silica and pH down.

If by tomorrow morning, as was this morning, the pH is back over 6 from 5.5, I'll know it's not my tap or the nutrient ratio. If it stays stable, when it comes to the next change out, I'll switch back to tap and monitor again.

This will confirm which was the root cause, if it was the tap water or the nutrient ratio, or will indicate it's one of the additives.

Worst case, and as a control, what I'll next is a back step to my initial method of running pool shock to keep the res sterile and monitor for swings. That would eliminate two additives that have been introduced over a short time frame and put me back at baseline.

I would then drop the pool shock again, and begin with identifying which of the two additives is at fault by running them individually. Finally, return back to current status quo and test again.

Sure, this process will be wasteful (9 gallons of solution being changed out daily is a shitty process). However it will lead to identifying what the root cause is.

The best part about this is I have so much of it documented now, it's no longer a game of shooting in the dark. I've learned a few things I have done incorrectly, and will continue correct as I proceed on this journey. Worst case, I'm out a bit of water, some nutrients, but will know that it's not base water related, base nutrient related, res and root health related, or silica related.

That leads up to the next set of variables which are environmental, where things get a bit more tricky and much more expensive to manipulate. Fingers crossed it doesn't go that far. Hell, by that point, and so long the plants don't get cooked in all my shenanigans, it'll be time to flower and it'll be closer to dialed in for a great final sprint.

 

[Badmofo529]

I think your on the right track, the ratio being off could very well have caused a lockout, which swung ph. Or even the inverse where the plant was up taking what it needed and leaving what it didn't need which swung ph, then caused the lockout.

So the lockout could have made the ph swing, or the ph swing made the lockout. Either way it looks like you caught it and figured out a plan to pinpoint what the problem was before it got too bad.