Nothing Fancy

[NotAquaMan]

Definitely. I don't have nearly as much experience as you (or any of the hydro growers I've met), so I'm all ears. I have found that even though both classified as Hydro and similar concepts, F&D and RDWC run quite differently in my limited experience.

I don't do full res changes, I just top off. So basically if I have a 20 gal res, and it goes down to 10 gal, then I will add back 10 gal worth of water and the same strength nutes for whatever growth stage I'm targeting. The EI sounds like something I'd like to know more about. I am always about continual improvement.

Yeah definately different. Pure hydro is faster than flood and drain but both have thier benefits. I would say the fastest possible growth rates come from aeroponics but the margins for error is also the greatest.

Top ups are not bad. A lot depends on the total volume of water you are working with. The larger the more stable and longer before you run into a ratio imbalance and lockout. It's absolutely possible in the right circumstances to not have to change the water for an entire grow. Not something I would recommend but it can be done. I generally only do 25% water changes weekly until flip which is about 3 weeks veg then then up to 50% weekly depending on my shift in my daily ppm.

 

[spyralout]

Yeah definately different. Pure hydro is faster than flood and drain but both have thier benefits. I would say the fastest possible growth rates come from aeroponics but the margins for error is also the greatest.

Top ups are not bad. A lot depends on the total volume of water you are working with. The larger the more stable and longer before you run into a ratio imbalance and lockout. It's absolutely possible in the right circumstances to not have to change the water for an entire grow. Not something I would recommend but it can be done. I generally only do 25% water changes weekly until flip which is about 3 weeks veg then then up to 50% weekly depending on my shift in my daily ppm.

If the plants are drinking the water, then what is the purpose of a doing a full changeout? To keep residue and gunk from building up? Or am I not understanding?

 

[NotAquaMan]

If the plants are drinking the water, then what is the purpose of a doing a full changeout? To keep residue and gunk from building up? Or am I not understanding?

To keep nutrient balance (ratios) the plants don't take up the exactly proportion of nutrients we give them. Several factors contribute to this. One being the 2 types of nutrient uptake some are passive other are not. Then There is the availability and if you look at Mulder's chart you can see that uptake of sof some nutrients can increase or decrease uptake of other nutrients. Even the light cycle plays a part as during the Calvin cycle (dark period) plants transport nutrients like starches etc back in to the meida. Add also PH to the availability of nutrients therefore affecting uptake of more or less of certain nutrients. All of these Can affect PH, ppm and nutrient ratios.

So basically whatever you put in is subject to change and that change becomes more dramatic over time. By doing partial water changes you can ensure a to a point certain amount of ratio is kept.

 

[Caddis]

Wow someone actually said that. I'm impressed I have been saying this since I started hydro if I had to bet who on here might have said this I'm going to guess it was @Jewels and the reason I guess that is his background in aquatics.

This is so right change 50% water max at a time. Now with that said we also lack a substrate or media for ideal bacteria population. This can easily be addressed but later today when I sit down and start that RDWC thread I will get into that. Also how to establish and why types do well. You actually don't need hydrogaurd if you are seeding and maintaining denitrifying bacteria. The bacteria in hydrogaurd don't actually reproduce well in water so there are some other modifications that can be done to aid that but I'm not certain it's worth the effort. I will get more into it later.

Also never clean or wipe your res or sites below the water line unless in between grows. That clear slippery film is actually bacteria and you want to keep it.

Ha, actually I was thinking it was you posted it on the big site under a different name, perhaps?

 

[NotAquaMan]

Ha, actually I was thinking it was you posted it on the big site under a different name, perhaps?

Haha it may have been. I only even been on the farm and Riu... Under Aquaman. I felt a change in identity was in order here so I went with NotAquaMan lol. Idk whether that was clever or well "special" but it's done now lmao

 

[Caddis]

So I understand correctly. On a new res and system, I toss in 3 cups/gal of bennies. Then every 3 days or so I toss in 1 cup in the res, 1 in the epi. Repeat with fresh topped up res. Is this achieving the same thing?

@Caddis that is a very clean system, nice job my last run I used megacrop and I got some brown stains in the res and gunk built up on the air lines. The buckets weren't bad. Stones were about 75% as clean as yours. This run will be GH3 (only using Micro & Bloom). Those UC brand bulkhead nuts have those nice grips, but man, last time I checked they were crazy expensive.

I was surprised it was that clean really,
I tried the sample bag of Megacrop while I was still using CS nutes.
I was looking for ease and affordable.

I’m not knocking Megacrop, if it works for you, but cracking that bag was my first sign.
I tried a batch in my first attempt at f&d, it filmed up. I just didn’t like it.
I saw Jacks was getting used by some visible growers and with LED, the cal/mag adjustability is there.

I’m not big on paperwork, would be a horrible tester.
Smoke Report:
“That’s some good shit, man!
Sorry, still back in the 70’s
I don’t know anybody that smokes, except y’all.

 

[spyralout]

To keep nutrient balance (ratios) the plants don't take up the exactly proportion of nutrients we give them. Several factors contribute to this. One being the 2 types of nutrient uptake some are passive other are not. Then There is the availability and if you look at Mulder's chart you can see that uptake of sof some nutrients can increase or decrease uptake of other nutrients. Even the light cycle plays a part as during the Calvin cycle (dark period) plants transport nutrients like starches etc back in to the meida. Add also PH to the availability of nutrients therefore affecting uptake of more or less of certain nutrients. All of these Can affect PH, ppm and nutrient ratios.

So basically whatever you put in is subject to change and that change becomes more dramatic over time. By doing partial water changes you can ensure a to a point certain amount of ratio is kept.

So isn't that what I'm essentially doing if I let my res get down to about half then top up?

 

[spyralout]

I was surprised it was that clean really,
I tried the sample bag of Megacrop while I was still using CS nutes.
I was looking for ease and affordable.

I’m not knocking Megacrop, if it works for you, but cracking that bag was my first sign.
I tried a batch in my first attempt at f&d, it filmed up. I just didn’t like it.
I saw Jacks was getting used by some visible growers and with LED, the cal/mag adjustability is there.

I’m not big on paperwork, would be a horrible tester.
Smoke Report:
“That’s some good shit, man!
Sorry, still back in the 70’s
I don’t know anybody that smokes, except y’all.

I gave up on megacrop

 

[Caddis]

Haha it may have been. I only even been on the farm and Riu... Under Aquaman. I felt a change in identity was in order here so I went with NotAquaMan lol. Idk whether that was clever or well "special" but it's done now lmao

Didn’t fool me!
Awesome, wanted to talk to you back then.
See, someone was listening, it worked for me.
Seriously, if people would read instead of starting numerous threads about the same thing.
People with knowledge get tired of posting the same repetitious answers.
Then the answers get buried in rubble.
I’ve never asked a question, it’s all already on the web.

 

[Caddis]

Yes essentially but the question then is why keep adding bennies if they are thriving? Is it because they are dying off due to lack of food source or other reasons? Adding to much bacteria does not give any benefit and could actually have negative effects

This ran so smooth, I arbitrarily added nutes.
The bennies were very happy, plant too for the most part. I splashed some HG when swapping water.
I didn’t track anything, it ran itself. I’m not going back to read notes, sorry!

I run Guardian’s set to EC, when it drops on that scale, their eating.
I don’t need to know the minute fluctuations of PPM scale. Some do, I understand.
I have a twelve gal. add back I top off, sometimes straight water if EC has not fluctuated. I have a cheap bottom feed pump on a cycle timer 30 sec every hour. Pump has a T fitting, first time using it. Air stones don’t keep it mixed like that.
Jack’s mixed to 1.2 EC sets the PH 5.8-9 with no adjustment. Stonger you mix, lower the PH with mine.
If I have to PH up, it’s too hot for me.
If running silica then that changes, mine raise the PH wow!

 

[NotAquaMan]

I hear ya both on the mega crop. Many people don't like it. I haven't had an issue with it but the version I have is version 1 not sure if that has anything to do with it.

So isn't that what I'm essentially doing if I let my res get down to about half then top up?

No by topping up you are not replenishing nutrient ratios. Let's say you fill res add nutes and you have 100%N 100%P 100%K of what ferts you are using now the plant takes up 20%N 4%P and 10%K. I'm going to avoid all the math here. But you top with 100% of each again. It won't bring you back to the same ratio of nutrients you started with. You will have high P to N and K to N ratios. Now the longer this goes on the more the balance of those ratios gets out of whack. So topping up only will compound over time and cause a nutrient imbalance.

Now if we change 50% a week not too up. Then we can reduce this shift in ratios greatly. If we do 100% a week we can eliminate it almost all together. What I'm saying is with 50% changes we can reduce it to the point we won't see issues indefinitely and 100% change is not needed. This also goes a long way to reduce stress on the bacteria and plants as they don't have as drastic changes but rather more subtle. Now that nota not say it absolutely needs to be every week or has to be 50% change. I dont usually do my first change until the beginning of week 3 and that only 25%. This is because there has not been a lot of uptake in comparison to the size of my system. As the plants get bigger and drink more I increase the volume of changes because that imbalance can become more pronounced.

 

[NotAquaMan]

This ran so smooth, I arbitrarily added nutes.
The bennies were very happy, plant too for the most part. I splashed some HG when swapping water.
I didn’t track anything, it ran itself. I’m not going back to read notes, sorry!

I run Guardian’s set to EC, when it drops on that scale, their eating.
I don’t need to know the minute fluctuations of PPM scale. Some do, I understand.
I have a twelve gal. add back I top off, sometimes straight water if EC has not fluctuated. I have a cheap bottom feed pump on a cycle timer 30 sec every hour. Pump has a T fitting, first time using it. Air stones don’t keep it mixed like that.
Jack’s mixed to 1.2 EC sets the PH 5.8-9 with no adjustment. Stonger you mix, lower the PH with mine.
If I have to PH up, it’s too hot for me.
If running silica then that changes, mine raise the PH wow!

You are doing 50% changes and it ran smooth? Or did I read that wrong?

 

[Caddis]

In theory but not practice is my opinion. I want to be clear to anyone reading there is no best way and I'm not suggesting everyone in hydro should do it the way I do. If you add bennies and do full res changes there is nothing wrong with it.

About the best example I can give is I used to mix my own nutrients and test individual nutrient levels to see what what being uptaken in my planted tanks when I used to be in that hobby. It's a lot more similar to hydro than people think. Now if you have ever had a planted tank the term EI will likely ring a bell. It was developed by a man named Tom Barr. It's was basically a way to feed plants while ensuring nutrient ratios stayed within a certain balance. Over the years almost everyone from aquatics to aquaponics has used this method so it's nothing new but more so just not widely recognized by hydro growers. It's an evolution to the complete res change as was once also the principal for both aquatics and aquaponics which have been around far longer than our hydroponic systems.

It's basically a more advanced version of what we use now but understand neither is right just different and method IMO should be chosen based on experience.

If your newer to hydro the simplest will likely suit you best. If you are looking for a more advanced approach then these discussions are for you

New rule, no Advanced Methods- more homework!

Seriously, good stuff.
A lot of people don’t try it because someone said “newbs can’t run hydro”
If your not a little mechanical, might be more of a challenge.
I’ve done construction most of my life, but if you can’t build a cross, dirt might be for you. ?

 

[NotAquaMan]

Lol I warned some of my stuff may be a bit controversial... But it's good to have discussions even if others may or may not agree. It's help the community as a whole.

 

[Caddis]

Definitely. I don't have nearly as much experience as you (or any of the hydro growers I've met), so I'm all ears. I have found that even though both classified as Hydro and similar concepts, F&D and RDWC run quite differently in my limited experience.

I don't do full res changes, I just top off. So basically if I have a 20 gal res, and it goes down to 10 gal, then I will add back 10 gal worth of water and the same strength nutes for whatever growth stage I'm targeting. The EI sounds like something I'd like to know more about. I am always about continual improvement.

I run my F&D same mix as UC.
I really need to set it up with a cycle pump.
You want to get deeper, I’m the kid slouching in his chair in the back!

 

[Caddis]

I hear ya both on the mega crop. Many people don't like it. I haven't had an issue with it but the version I have is version 1 not sure if that has anything to do with it.


No by topping up you are not replenishing nutrient ratios. Let's say you fill res add nutes and you have 100%N 100%P 100%K of what ferts you are using now the plant takes up 20%N 4%P and 10%K. I'm going to avoid all the math here. But you top with 100% of each again. It won't bring you back to the same ratio of nutrients you started with. You will have high P to N and K to N ratios. Now the longer this goes on the more the balance of those ratios gets out of whack. So topping up only will compound over time and cause a nutrient imbalance.

Now if we change 50% a week not too up. Then we can reduce this shift in ratios greatly. If we do 100% a week we can eliminate it almost all together. What I'm saying is with 50% changes we can reduce it to the point we won't see issues indefinitely and 100% change is not needed. This also goes a long way to reduce stress on the bacteria and plants as they don't have as drastic changes but rather more subtle. Now that nota not say it absolutely needs to be every week or has to be 50% change. I dont usually do my first change until the beginning of week 3 and that only 25%. This is because there has not been a lot of uptake in comparison to the size of my system. As the plants get bigger and drink more I increase the volume of changes because that imbalance can become more pronounced.

Clearly, no one want to follow my regiment!

 

[Caddis]

Lol I warned some of my stuff may be a bit controversial... But it's good to have discussions even if others may or may not agree. It's help the community as a whole.

Just don’t tell me air stones raise PH!
Kidding, it might for others?
One size does not fit all, some have trouble with that, it seems?

 

[NotAquaMan]

Clearly, no one want to follow my regiment!

Well your using jacks so I would be interested... Not a lot of mega crop left and since I have version 1 and many including yourself didn't like the latest 2 versions. I'm kinda leaning that way after. I don't do F&D but the same principles apply in terms of nutes. Fill a bro in on it ?

 

[NotAquaMan]

Just don’t tell me air stones raise PH!
Kidding, it might for others?
One size does not fit all, some have trouble with that, it seems?

Haha don't get me started...

+1

 

[DopeDaniel]

Info is hard to come by discretely.
My biggest rookie move is when I switched to hydro, nobody told me UC Roots and Hydroguard were sworn enemies!! Seemed like double coverage? Holy hell!! ??
I got a close up view of what root rot could look like.
Found out some plants don’t want to be neighbors either.

Thanks to everyone for an awesome first day, this is going to be fun!

Thank you guys for putting this together!

Well, I’ve been through dirt, organic dirt, super dirt, Autopot Smartpot dirt/ organic bottle nute. (Seaweed does not work well in those lines)


RDWC is my favorite because there’s lots of pieces (can be) and I love to tinker with it.
Talk about read the plant, it’s almost instant feedback compared to dirt.
To be honest, never really got the hang of dirt.
It helps I have really good water, bought an RO filter, but it’s a waste of water for me.
The nutes I’m running have really helps stablize things. Hydroguard
Chiller, never ran without, so can’t see how well I would do, but I know others are successful.

Nice to have tap water pressure for filling and cleaning too.
If you can’t fill and drain pretty easy, it wouldn’t be near as much fun.
8# a gal x 30 no thanks!
If your fighting PH problems, root rot, lights, bugs and trying to learn, it would be tougher?
I don’t have bug problems, so it pretty straight forward for me.
And the results are insane, but how much can you store?
I think some places it’s probably virtually impossible to be successful.

Another thing, I like to be barefoot. Water is better suited for that.

Yeah hydrogaurd is a great addition also hygrowzyme for enzymes since with the current culture of hydro most do not have adequate setups for beneficial bacteria. You don't need the bacteria if you can just add the enzymes. I find water temps of about 72-73f to be most productive. In terms of a chiller I feel if your under 75f you don't need so long as you have decent gas exchange to replenish o2 levels. The 68f I feel is BS in preventing pathogens like pythium. It will however slow down the metabolism and reproduction rates which gives you time to react. But if you have a healthy population of Bacillus amyloliquefaciens then it will never be an issue.

I have never had any bug issues in my hydro like you. Also decent water to start with 120ppm and after checking my water report nothing in it concerns me in the least.

A few days ago, we held commencement exercises for some young ladies.
This is what they home looked like after 12+, one complete dump at flip and a couple of half dumps.

Someone posted somewhere? about only replacing half the solution to maintain the bennies, think that’s right? Saves water too, so it could apply sterile?
Regardless, it worked for me.
I have not done anything but pull the stone, no rinse.
I th View attachment 8728 View attachment 8728 View attachment 8729 View attachment 8730 View attachment 8727 View attachment 8730 View attachment 8730

Wow someone actually said that. I'm impressed I have been saying this since I started hydro if I had to bet who on here might have said this I'm going to guess it was @Jewels and the reason I guess that is his background in aquatics.

This is so right change 50% water max at a time. Now with that said we also lack a substrate or media for ideal bacteria population. This can easily be addressed but later today when I sit down and start that RDWC thread I will get into that. Also how to establish and why types do well. You actually don't need hydrogaurd if you are seeding and maintaining denitrifying bacteria. The bacteria in hydrogaurd don't actually reproduce well in water so there are some other modifications that can be done to aid that but I'm not certain it's worth the effort. I will get more into it later.

Also never clean or wipe your res or sites below the water line unless in between grows. That clear slippery film is actually bacteria and you want to keep it.

Seems like a good a place as any , so I'm going to throw this out there,,,,

Electromagnetic radiation is used to decontaminate the water from various chemicals, bacteria and other materials, including:

• Cryptosporidium
• Giardia
• Chlorine
• Chloramine
• Viruses
• Salmonella
• E. coli
• Meningitis
• Dysentery
• Flu
• Cysts

A germicidal or mercury vapour lamp is used to create UV light. A glass component of the lamp creates a transparent surface for the shortwave UV light to pass through. The shortwave radiation ultimately eliminates any bacteria or microorganism that it encounters.

Although quite effective, UV disinfection doesn’t remove dissolved organics, inorganic compounds or particles found in the water.


Ever lost a crop to meningitis ?

I agree it's good if you run sterile but it's not good if trying to run live with bacteria. It's actually an amazing treatment for cyanobacteria in aquariums. Like 2-3 days and dead. There are 2 schools that work imo sterile and live but you can't mix them

In theory but not practice is my opinion. I want to be clear to anyone reading there is no best way and I'm not suggesting everyone in hydro should do it the way I do. If you add bennies and do full res changes there is nothing wrong with it.

About the best example I can give is I used to mix my own nutrients and test individual nutrient levels to see what what being uptaken in my planted tanks when I used to be in that hobby. It's a lot more similar to hydro than people think. Now if you have ever had a planted tank the term EI will likely ring a bell. It was developed by a man named Tom Barr. It's was basically a way to feed plants while ensuring nutrient ratios stayed within a certain balance. Over the years almost everyone from aquatics to aquaponics has used this method so it's nothing new but more so just not widely recognized by hydro growers. It's an evolution to the complete res change as was once also the principal for both aquatics and aquaponics which have been around far longer than our hydroponic systems.

It's basically a more advanced version of what we use now but understand neither is right just different and method IMO should be chosen based on experience.

If your newer to hydro the simplest will likely suit you best. If you are looking for a more advanced approach then these discussions are for you

I hear ya both on the mega crop. Many people don't like it. I haven't had an issue with it but the version I have is version 1 not sure if that has anything to do with it.


No by topping up you are not replenishing nutrient ratios. Let's say you fill res add nutes and you have 100%N 100%P 100%K of what ferts you are using now the plant takes up 20%N 4%P and 10%K. I'm going to avoid all the math here. But you top with 100% of each again. It won't bring you back to the same ratio of nutrients you started with. You will have high P to N and K to N ratios. Now the longer this goes on the more the balance of those ratios gets out of whack. So topping up only will compound over time and cause a nutrient imbalance.

Now if we change 50% a week not too up. Then we can reduce this shift in ratios greatly. If we do 100% a week we can eliminate it almost all together. What I'm saying is with 50% changes we can reduce it to the point we won't see issues indefinitely and 100% change is not needed. This also goes a long way to reduce stress on the bacteria and plants as they don't have as drastic changes but rather more subtle. Now that nota not say it absolutely needs to be every week or has to be 50% change. I dont usually do my first change until the beginning of week 3 and that only 25%. This is because there has not been a lot of uptake in comparison to the size of my system. As the plants get bigger and drink more I increase the volume of changes because that imbalance can become more pronounced.

All this in a hello how do you do thread? This feels like journal @spyralout ?? Only id @Caddis wants to though.

@NotAquaMan would it not be best to start with a balanced solution in the first place? I am a hydro newb so to speak its been 20 years. I am not opposed to going a full run without changing the res, I am at day 25 now went 28 not having the tray full, ended up with one flowering plant and moved more after that first res change.

I am using uv.

When I did soil it was my belief that adding microbes to good organic compost was not benificial. I dont belive most organic mj growers use good organic compost therefore the benifits they see are the result of patching a broken micro biome. It is very difficult to obtain a healty micro biome this is complicated imo when growing in containers.